I need to fill the gap between my sealed subs and midrange horns.
60-300hz would be the range I need with smooth top end roll off.
The 60hz horn is big (long) and I am considering other loading option that are the next best where high efficiency and low distortion is priority.
Here's a plan but not sure if it's good for my range -- anyone know this?
My 2nd find:
horn loaded 7th order banspass:
www.renkusheinz-sound.ru/pdf_datasheets/CE3TLOK_data.PDF
Would appreciate any recommendations from someone who has heard good midbass horns and experience other (close 2nd) loadings....
thanks
Herman
60-300hz would be the range I need with smooth top end roll off.
The 60hz horn is big (long) and I am considering other loading option that are the next best where high efficiency and low distortion is priority.
Here's a plan but not sure if it's good for my range -- anyone know this?
My 2nd find:
horn loaded 7th order banspass:
www.renkusheinz-sound.ru/pdf_datasheets/CE3TLOK_data.PDF
Would appreciate any recommendations from someone who has heard good midbass horns and experience other (close 2nd) loadings....
thanks
Herman
The design should start by considering where your want your crossover points. 60 is lowish for a quality midrange and likewise needless lowish for a sub. 300 is in the middle of the audible music range and so not a great choice.
A single mixed-bass sub playing music can handle the range from 120 Hz (or higher) on down with no detectable loss of stereo sense. Likewise, a good midrange can play across the whole of the main music band just fine, say 120-2500, 4 octaves.
Depending on your room furnishings and maybe your sound preferences, hardly any way to mount a midrange that is bad, even hanging the driver from a cord on ceiling (actually, pretty good*).... although 60 is too low for a no-baffle setting. I'd guess adherents to dipole mounting are happier with their sound than those using box enclosures.
B.
*even better if you put a large toroid coil in series to boost the low end, DAMHIK
A single mixed-bass sub playing music can handle the range from 120 Hz (or higher) on down with no detectable loss of stereo sense. Likewise, a good midrange can play across the whole of the main music band just fine, say 120-2500, 4 octaves.
Depending on your room furnishings and maybe your sound preferences, hardly any way to mount a midrange that is bad, even hanging the driver from a cord on ceiling (actually, pretty good*).... although 60 is too low for a no-baffle setting. I'd guess adherents to dipole mounting are happier with their sound than those using box enclosures.
B.
*even better if you put a large toroid coil in series to boost the low end, DAMHIK
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bentoronto,
The crossover points are pretty clear to me. My midrange horn (10"driver) starts to roll off below 200Hz. My subs need to cross at 60-70Hz. So with a little extra bandwidth, to be on the safe side, the midbass needs to be optimized 70-300Hz.
Other than horns, I am still looking for loading options for max efficiency.
Bandpass horn, Karlson?
The crossover points are pretty clear to me. My midrange horn (10"driver) starts to roll off below 200Hz. My subs need to cross at 60-70Hz. So with a little extra bandwidth, to be on the safe side, the midbass needs to be optimized 70-300Hz.
Other than horns, I am still looking for loading options for max efficiency.
Bandpass horn, Karlson?
You've painted yourself into a (bad) corner and that's the starting point of your thread. So be it.
I'm sure wise people here can offer reasonable suggestions for that tricky territory between 60 and 300. Not sure how i'd deal with it, being such a complex band to meet very different kinds of sonic criteria. For sure, you don't want something awful like a "tapped horn" intruding on your critical listening band even if you find it helpful for a sub or in football stadiums.
But what I'd do to start is by running freq response curves on your existing speakers to see just where the gap really is. Odd to have a sub that poops out north of 60. Perhaps you did a sim that insisted your 10th order bandpass absolutely would behave no other way. Would just a touch of EQ make it fine to 250?
B.
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B.,
It's not a bad situation. I've also used past experience to arrive at my current requirements. Here what I have already -- thoroughly tried out.
My sealed box Aura 1808 subs can play way past 200hz if asked. But not with the same definition as my horns. I have tried what you suggest and in fact this is what I currently use.
I also have a straight 15" midbass horns that I have experimented with:
Funktion-One | Products | DS15
I has the definition but it starts to roll off below 120hz.
So I have concluded that I need to bridge the gap between my subs and my mid horns. Still open for recommendations for alternative loadings for 70-300hz
Herman
It's not a bad situation. I've also used past experience to arrive at my current requirements. Here what I have already -- thoroughly tried out.
My sealed box Aura 1808 subs can play way past 200hz if asked. But not with the same definition as my horns. I have tried what you suggest and in fact this is what I currently use.
I also have a straight 15" midbass horns that I have experimented with:
Funktion-One | Products | DS15
I has the definition but it starts to roll off below 120hz.
So I have concluded that I need to bridge the gap between my subs and my mid horns. Still open for recommendations for alternative loadings for 70-300hz
Herman
Well, way back when I used Altec dual 15" truncated FLHs, but way too large for most folks these days and even these needed corner loading to get nominally flat down to below 70 Hz.
Personally wouldn't consider anything but [horn loaded] direct radiator, so no folded BPs or horns for me since high speech intelligibility demands nominally flat down to 125 Hz at highest practical SQ [low distortion, excellent acoustic power response, etc.].
GM
Personally wouldn't consider anything but [horn loaded] direct radiator, so no folded BPs or horns for me since high speech intelligibility demands nominally flat down to 125 Hz at highest practical SQ [low distortion, excellent acoustic power response, etc.].
GM
There are trade-offs to everything. Hi BL motors with light moving mass in a sealed enclosure will indeed have low voltage sensitivity in the lower frequencies, but true efficiency is higher than it looks at first glance. There's a paper out that explains this which I can't find at the moment. You'll ultimately be able to get similar output as you would from a horn with a similar frontal area of the 4x12's.
Power them with something like a big Peavey IPR, Crest ProLite, Inuke, QSC PLD or GXD, etc.
The good thing is that you'll get articulation and impact in a small footprint with little to no real downsides in a home environment.
Gm,
I have a temp solution -- Peavey FH1 (brother of LaScala). It's too narrow of bandwidth for my needs. Realistically it's 90-300hz of great sound.
Still looking for 60-400hz solution.
I am seriously thinking that a Karlsonator box may be the best solution for me. Recommended 12" driver for a Karlsonator?
thanks!
I have a temp solution -- Peavey FH1 (brother of LaScala). It's too narrow of bandwidth for my needs. Realistically it's 90-300hz of great sound.
Still looking for 60-400hz solution.
I am seriously thinking that a Karlsonator box may be the best solution for me. Recommended 12" driver for a Karlsonator?
thanks!
Hmm, title says 60-300 Hz, 60-400 Hz makes enough difference to matter.
Well, don't keep up with drivers in general and while the original plan was for me to design what became the Karlsonator, 'life' kept/continues to limit my quality time, so have yet to give any thought to what might work best overall, especially now that Freddi, et al has done so much experimentation, so defer to them; plus as previously noted, don't consider it a high enough SQ cab alignment for this high a BW.
That said, based on Freddi noting some years ago that the original K was 'voiced' for Altec 604, etc., duplex drivers, a high excursion, ferrite or neo motor ~clone of the Altec/GPA 414 seems a 'no-brainer'
: http://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Classic-Series-414-8B-Spec-Sheet.pdf
GM
Well, don't keep up with drivers in general and while the original plan was for me to design what became the Karlsonator, 'life' kept/continues to limit my quality time, so have yet to give any thought to what might work best overall, especially now that Freddi, et al has done so much experimentation, so defer to them; plus as previously noted, don't consider it a high enough SQ cab alignment for this high a BW.
That said, based on Freddi noting some years ago that the original K was 'voiced' for Altec 604, etc., duplex drivers, a high excursion, ferrite or neo motor ~clone of the Altec/GPA 414 seems a 'no-brainer'
: http://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Classic-Series-414-8B-Spec-Sheet.pdfGM
60-300 could be done with something like this. Gently-folded FLH. These get down to about 75 ground plane in pairs, but only have a path length of 42”. Go to about 64” with a similar kind of box and it should get the low end. The low end is all determined by the path length and mouth size. High end coverage is somewhat dependent on the driver, but ultimately limited by the 600 Hz offset driver null. Measures damn flat from 75 up to around 330 with either of the Eminence made 12”. The higher power high mass PRV gets to the same 330 Hz. The lower mass PRV drivers keeps right on trucking past 400 Hz before starting to roll off. A similar box with a 10” driver (with a strong motor) could go higher because the offset driver null would get pushed up. An ND box rather than an OD Box could push past 600 with a really high BL low mass driver but it’s a much more complicated build to keep in that form factor.
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