Hello guys! Our crew wants to build a soundystem which will primarly play dub/dubstep/jungle, but we will also have to play techno/psytrance sometimes. We will use this system indoors and outdoors, so big spl and reach is primarily our goal. Since we are new to this i have some questions.
We want to start with sub bins and we are looking at 18" super scooper and 18" hog scoop, posibly loaded with pd 1851/2 (if any of you have different suggestions feel free to express it). For the beginning we are looking at building 4 bins (and in the future maybe 8). I`m wondering if any of you can help me with telling me the difference between this two types of horns (regarding spl, clarity of the bass, throw, strenght when stacked etc.). Later, we also intend to build kickers and mids/tops, so if any of you have some suggestions, they are welcome
Money is of course an issue, but we are prepared to work on this longer and build it properly. The size is not a big issue, since we use a big van to transport it.
We are looking at this two designs:
Speakerplans.com
Hog Scoop
Are they any good? Does somebody has experience with this to designs? I also read that is better to use pd1851/2 than pd1850. What is you opinion on that?
Thank you for your help!
Best regards,
D
We want to start with sub bins and we are looking at 18" super scooper and 18" hog scoop, posibly loaded with pd 1851/2 (if any of you have different suggestions feel free to express it). For the beginning we are looking at building 4 bins (and in the future maybe 8). I`m wondering if any of you can help me with telling me the difference between this two types of horns (regarding spl, clarity of the bass, throw, strenght when stacked etc.). Later, we also intend to build kickers and mids/tops, so if any of you have some suggestions, they are welcome
Money is of course an issue, but we are prepared to work on this longer and build it properly. The size is not a big issue, since we use a big van to transport it.
We are looking at this two designs:
Speakerplans.com
Hog Scoop
Are they any good? Does somebody has experience with this to designs? I also read that is better to use pd1851/2 than pd1850. What is you opinion on that?
Thank you for your help!
Best regards,
D
Wow. Big bass, outdoors, dance...
If I were running a serious dance gig indoors I would want more than 4 18 inch subs. Outdoors is a serious challenge. I used to have 2 massive 20 hz horn loaded subs in my playroom. Good, but not dance club territory.
My experience with horns is that you can get great efficiency, but really need to array them, and for deep bass want to be very careful with filtering material below their pass band.
If you can stretch to four a side (or 8 in the middle) do so. It makes a big difference at the low end.
If you are looking for nuances between different horn implementations, then I suggest you take a step back and ask what is practicable.
If I were running a serious dance gig indoors I would want more than 4 18 inch subs. Outdoors is a serious challenge. I used to have 2 massive 20 hz horn loaded subs in my playroom. Good, but not dance club territory.
My experience with horns is that you can get great efficiency, but really need to array them, and for deep bass want to be very careful with filtering material below their pass band.
If you can stretch to four a side (or 8 in the middle) do so. It makes a big difference at the low end.
If you are looking for nuances between different horn implementations, then I suggest you take a step back and ask what is practicable.
I'd probably go for tapped horns - they don't require a huge wall of subs to go low - each sub you add just makes it louder.
A front-loaded horn (which is, I suspect, more like what you're thinking of building) needs to work in multiples to get low - one on its own won't do much.
With today's PA drivers having increasing Xmax etc, I wouldn't rule out a pile of ported subs.
Chris
A front-loaded horn (which is, I suspect, more like what you're thinking of building) needs to work in multiples to get low - one on its own won't do much.
With today's PA drivers having increasing Xmax etc, I wouldn't rule out a pile of ported subs.
Chris
Thank you very much for your help! We are looking for this kind of scoops, that are usually used in dub soundsystems, but this othorn bin looks amazing. Epa can you please interpret me the results from hornresp, since i`m new to this and i dont completly understand the graphs. I see that hogs are little better around 30hz area and super scooper has a big dip just after 100hz, but they give more power between 40-100hz. Could you explain other terms and results? Thank you again for your help.
Here you won't find much supporters for scoops as this is a hifi forum mainly. The classic scoop deliver the typical dubsound if build exactly to plan (many arround are sloppy build) but the phase between the frontloaded and horn sound is not right. The hogh is designed to deal with that issue and is most popular arround here now but there is still a hardcore following for the classical scoops
as long as you don't build shortmans, and follow the right plans (like on speakersystem) you're ok.
Other popular drivers are 18 sound and Void (types are found on the forum of speakerplan, where also the experts are on scoops (in the scoop section of the forum).
I personally would work with big folded horns (like the tuba horns) because i think they are better, but if i only could build scoops, hoghs would be my choice and the driver would be the 18 sound, the amps crests.
as long as you don't build shortmans, and follow the right plans (like on speakersystem) you're ok.
Other popular drivers are 18 sound and Void (types are found on the forum of speakerplan, where also the experts are on scoops (in the scoop section of the forum).
I personally would work with big folded horns (like the tuba horns) because i think they are better, but if i only could build scoops, hoghs would be my choice and the driver would be the 18 sound, the amps crests.
fyi
first graph is responce (2 subs is grey line)
second graph is conus excurion
third graph is group delay.
4th is schematic diagram.
what drivers are available at your location?
also imporant is how much power do you have available for the subs.
* in simulations there is almost no difference between the pd 1850/51/52
@wax
there are lots of topics on pro audio subs here
first graph is responce (2 subs is grey line)
second graph is conus excurion
third graph is group delay.
4th is schematic diagram.
what drivers are available at your location?
also imporant is how much power do you have available for the subs.
* in simulations there is almost no difference between the pd 1850/51/52
@wax
there are lots of topics on pro audio subs here
Do you maybe know about reach with hog or superscooper? What is the deal with tuba horns btw?
epa i see what the grafs are, but i dont know how to read them..
Regarding the drivers, none of this ones are available in my country to my knowledge, so i would have to order them from thomann or from uk or some other country..for now we have 3x carver pt1800, but we are going to buy some stronger ones.
I read on the forums, that 1850 is more harsh and has more spl (and lacks warmth and definition), while 1851 has more definition and warmth (but with this looses on strenght). Can you comment on that? Now im also considering 18sound lw1400, but i read about it, that it doesnt have so much power than pd 1850 or 1851. Because we need big spl, i think we are more on pd side..
epa i see what the grafs are, but i dont know how to read them..
Regarding the drivers, none of this ones are available in my country to my knowledge, so i would have to order them from thomann or from uk or some other country..for now we have 3x carver pt1800, but we are going to buy some stronger ones.
I read on the forums, that 1850 is more harsh and has more spl (and lacks warmth and definition), while 1851 has more definition and warmth (but with this looses on strenght). Can you comment on that? Now im also considering 18sound lw1400, but i read about it, that it doesnt have so much power than pd 1850 or 1851. Because we need big spl, i think we are more on pd side..
1) All subwoofer designs fall off at 6 dB SPL (sound pressure level) per doubling of distance. If you want more "reach" or "throw" use more cabinets or louder cabinets.
2) The Tuba designs are by Bill Fitzmaurice and plans are available for $$. They are various FLH (front loaded horn) designs, nothing particularly innovative.
3) Google "frequency response", "phase response", "loudspeaker excursion" "loudspeaker sensitivity", "Xmax, linear excursion".
The wider and flatter frequency response, the better.
The low E on a four string bass is 41 Hz, low B on a 5 string bass is 31 Hz.
Synthesized bass and kick can go as low as a few Hz, though most does not go much below 20 Hz, as few speaker systems can reproduce that low with much SPL .
To go low requires enclosures with long horn path. To go low and loud requires large horns.
Different designs have different excursion minima and maxima frequencies. The more Xmax, the more SPL capability. Doubling excursion while excursion is less than Xmax results in 6 dB more SPL.
A 3 dB increase in SPL requires double the power. A 3 dB increase in sensitivity requires only half the power for the same SPL.
A 10 dB increase in SPL sounds twice as loud (at 1000 Hz), and requires (at least) 10 times the power.
giving your circumstances,scoops can be the right choice for you.
pd driver has more excursion capabilety over th 18lw1400 ,but is more expencive.
grey is the 1400
the 18lw1400 has better efficiency from 42 to 80 hz and has better group delay.
you might also concider b&c 18 tbw 100 or better 18 sw 115.
if you not need the drivers right away,there is an new 18 sound driver coming.
pd driver has more excursion capabilety over th 18lw1400 ,but is more expencive.
grey is the 1400
the 18lw1400 has better efficiency from 42 to 80 hz and has better group delay.
you might also concider b&c 18 tbw 100 or better 18 sw 115.
if you not need the drivers right away,there is an new 18 sound driver coming.
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