Nelson Pass said:
I don't know about some of the other so-called "high-end" companies, but we'll start manufacturing our chassis in China when Ferrari starts building their engines in China....
By the way, some of those other companies are having trouble selling their gear in the Far East because the Chinese (including Taiwan and Hong Kong) don't want to pay premium prices for Chinese-made equipment.
> By the way, some of those other companies are having trouble selling their gear in the Far East because the Chinese (including Taiwan and Hong Kong) don't want to pay premium prices for Chinese-made equipment.
That is absolutely true.
That is of course assuming you tell them, or they still have a choice (counter ecample sport articles).
I have, for some reason, the devious speculation that Pass Lab heatsink extrusions come from the Far East ??
If you manage to find the right supplier (that is the art), you will be amazed at the quality and the prices.
Patrick
That is absolutely true.
That is of course assuming you tell them, or they still have a choice (counter ecample sport articles).
I have, for some reason, the devious speculation that Pass Lab heatsink extrusions come from the Far East ??
If you manage to find the right supplier (that is the art), you will be amazed at the quality and the prices.
Patrick
I think that this is a little crazy. I make products both in the USA and in Taiwan, and I would go to China for some things, IF they did as good a job, and I had high enough quantity to make the effort worthwhile.
The prejudice that we get from Asians not wanting to buy Asian parts is their prejudice, not ours. Why do we use Toshiba then? Why not Siliconix? Are we not Americans?
It is because Toshiba and other Japanese manufacturers have tried harder to meet our needs. It might be possible that Taiwan or China will do so, in their own way, and we should not discriminate against their metal work, just because they do it. However, I completely agree that American, German, and now, Japanese parts seem to be superior in virtually every case when it comes to electronic components, connectors, and wire. But these are 'working' components, not purely passive components, like metalwork.
The prejudice that we get from Asians not wanting to buy Asian parts is their prejudice, not ours. Why do we use Toshiba then? Why not Siliconix? Are we not Americans?
It is because Toshiba and other Japanese manufacturers have tried harder to meet our needs. It might be possible that Taiwan or China will do so, in their own way, and we should not discriminate against their metal work, just because they do it. However, I completely agree that American, German, and now, Japanese parts seem to be superior in virtually every case when it comes to electronic components, connectors, and wire. But these are 'working' components, not purely passive components, like metalwork.
At a recent dinner party a North American OEM of outdoor and sporting equipment described his experiences with Chinese production. It's been excellent so far. Independent third parties are now available to supervise local production for foreign firms and assure manufacturers meet exacting end customer spec. The OEM flies out once a month, as much for new production requirements and face time as anything else.
I have had mixed results with things made in China. I have a scar at the inside corner of my left eyebrow from trusting a Made-In-China pry bar. I've also wasted money on some really worthless wood clamps. On the other hand, I've had some things that have worked very well.
I see China as being where Japan was in the '50s and '60s when Made-In-Japan was synonymous with "cheap" or "poor quality." Boy, did that change in a hurry! By the mid-'70s, Japan had destroyed Detroit, beating them at their own game. By the late '70s the Japanese mass-market electronics manufacturers were making inroads into the high end. That they derailed later doesn't invalidate the argument. Where would we be today without moving coil cartridges made in Japan? Give the Chinese another five or ten years and it would not surprise me if they were consistently turning out high quality items.
All of which means that I am neutral on the quality of things made in China. In this I adopt an "I'm from Missouri, show me" attitude. If Chinese product is of decent quality, I am content to buy it. If it's junk made in a sweatshop, I'm out the door.
Charles's position I well understand. The things I said above are in no way to be read as criticism of his post. I do things myself. Why? So that I know that they are done right, first time, every time. Charles could just as easily farm his product out for assembly here in the US--but doesn't. If it's right there, he can monitor every single step of the process, from raw components to finished product.
I can see both sides of the coin. Farming out assembly to a firm in China can save you money if it's done right, or be your downfall if it's done wrong. I do not fault Charles or John for their decisions in this arena, even though they reached opposite conclusions.
In ten years we can revisit this topic and see if my comparing China to Japan was reasonable.
Grey
I see China as being where Japan was in the '50s and '60s when Made-In-Japan was synonymous with "cheap" or "poor quality." Boy, did that change in a hurry! By the mid-'70s, Japan had destroyed Detroit, beating them at their own game. By the late '70s the Japanese mass-market electronics manufacturers were making inroads into the high end. That they derailed later doesn't invalidate the argument. Where would we be today without moving coil cartridges made in Japan? Give the Chinese another five or ten years and it would not surprise me if they were consistently turning out high quality items.
All of which means that I am neutral on the quality of things made in China. In this I adopt an "I'm from Missouri, show me" attitude. If Chinese product is of decent quality, I am content to buy it. If it's junk made in a sweatshop, I'm out the door.
Charles's position I well understand. The things I said above are in no way to be read as criticism of his post. I do things myself. Why? So that I know that they are done right, first time, every time. Charles could just as easily farm his product out for assembly here in the US--but doesn't. If it's right there, he can monitor every single step of the process, from raw components to finished product.
I can see both sides of the coin. Farming out assembly to a firm in China can save you money if it's done right, or be your downfall if it's done wrong. I do not fault Charles or John for their decisions in this arena, even though they reached opposite conclusions.
In ten years we can revisit this topic and see if my comparing China to Japan was reasonable.
Grey
GRollins said:
We don't have to wait that long. The quality thing is probably comparable. But there are many other factors involved besides that. When you look at something like extrusions (which someone mentioned as being much cheaper from China), you have to ask yourself, "why would they be cheaper from China?" After all, there isn't that much labor in an extrusion, and presumably the raw material costs are the same for everyone.
One of the big reasons that things are cheaper from China is that things that we take for granted here are completely ignored there. For example, anodizing aluminum requires the use of toxic chemicals. In the US, these chemicals are usually disposed of in a reasonably responsible manner. (We learned our lessons from Love Canal and when Lake Erie was so polluted that it caught on fire.) But in China, you can bet that the chemicals are either dumped in the back yard or else down the drain that leads to the local river.
I've visited some Chinese loudspeaker manufacturing facilities, and was quite disgusted. The spray booths were the worst of all. The Chinese specialize in super-high-gloss finishes that require dozens of coats of spray, with hand buffing in between. The spray booths were manned by people working 12 hour shifts with no masks whatsoever. In five years these people will be unable to work at all, due to the brain damage from the solvents. In ten years they will be dying of liver cancer.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. In the next 20 years you will see two things happening. The first is that there will be hundreds of Love Canals in China. (Yes, most of you are too young to remember this, so just look it up on Wikipedia.) The second is that the government will be forced to enforce some type of environmental regulations. The end result is that just as Japan can no longer produce goods for less than the US can, China will no longer be able to undercut other countries on prices.
So the bottom line is that buying from China is a short-term solution, like drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (which will add about one year to the US's oil supply). So a few companies will make extra profit by building in China (take B&W for example -- all of the new 700 series cabinets are made in China for less than half the price of their European-built cabinets, but don't think for a second that they passed the savings on to their customers), but the long term environmental problems in China will be devastating.
Charles Hansen said:
Charles,
Good post, I agree with most of what you say.
Unfortunately the rest of the world has become addicted to $100
DVD players and the like. It looks like things will have to get
somewhat worse before they get better. Also, unfortunately when
China is done there is always India.
So it puts a different perspective on hi-end non-mass produced
gear. I've always had the view that - if people like you & Nelson can
make a decent buck from locally produced, relatively expensive but
very high quality gear - then the very best of luck to you.
T
Onvinyl said:
Why, you think it was different in Japan, or elsewhere for that matter ?
Up till 15 i was up to my armpits in trichlorethylene several weeks a year.
Great stuff, smells really nice and you get pretty damn high after degreasing metal stuff for about an hour.
No mask, no gloves, many years later i wind up in the medical field and find out that the float potion number 1 is carcinogenic.
Sewing the factory turned out to be a bit tricky, my dad owned it.
Keywords : TCE, Silent Spring.
At 18, i was sand casting 200lbs aluminum starshaped logos for police stations overhere five days a week.
Swell job, a nice constant 125F temperature with romantic smoke coming from the alloy oven and the heavy weight lifting would make Arny envious.
Gloves yes, mask...eeh, nope. But i did receive 1/2 a pint of milk each day for the toxins, yeaaah....on the house.
The Japanese high bulk consumption goodies industry has been relying on medieval work condition subcontractors from day 1, the strangle contract way.
Maybe China will clean up, in thirty years time, but i would not hold my breath because we're likely all dead and burried before that happens.
Just don't buy Chinese price breakers, i passed out on Ikea rugs and carpets a long time ago.
Signed : just a dumb country hick.
I'm not sure that we're not far into OT now ...
What I mean is, if I want high quality I want high responsibility as well. Surely nobody should have to get ill or die just because I'm having fun. Despite it is perfectly clear to me how that's difficult and maybe impossible to achieve, I'm sure there's is a market for that.
Rüdiger
What I mean is, if I want high quality I want high responsibility as well. Surely nobody should have to get ill or die just because I'm having fun. Despite it is perfectly clear to me how that's difficult and maybe impossible to achieve, I'm sure there's is a market for that.
Rüdiger
The best 'Grateful Dead' record in my opinion is 'Live Dead' that was recorded with an open loop vacuum tube mixer and an MM-1000 16 channel master recorder back in 1969-1970. When it is played back properly, I have actually gotten ' mental flashbacks' of a live performance. Unfortunately, the master tapes that I personally recorded were destroyed in the firestorm here in 1991.
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