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New V-fet complementary output stage
New V-fet complementary output stage
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Old 3rd July 2017, 06:18 PM   #1
mos57 is offline mos57  Italy
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Default New V-fet complementary output stage

Greetings to everyone,
as some of you already known, I have in the past tried solutions that could make the V-fet amplifier circuits simpler. Especially I want to remember that on this forum I presented the circuits of the BabySit series which in the simplest version use a single mono power supply. As some already known, V-fet, similarly to tubes, need a polarity of Gate voltage opposite to Drain.
But, meanwhile with tubes it is often possible to use autobias with series cathode resistance, this practice is almost impossible to use with the V-fet due to the large signal losses needed and a consistent increase in output resistance of circuit in relation to the load resistance, with a value comparable to the latter. This problem is not so much felt in the follower schematic, with source output, where it typically needs a single dual voltage, but if you try to use a common source scheme with Drain output, if you want to avoid unacceptable performance losses, to properly polarize the devices, it is really necessary to have 4 power supplies (with few exceptions).
One of these exceptions is to use a Transnova scheme and myself in the past have presented some project with this solution, but I must confess that they have received (wrongly in my opinion) little consideration.
Now, I have developed two new complementary push-pull output circuits, designed for V-fet applications and all other Depletion types as SIT, and Depletion MOSFET, which, although configured as common source amplifiers, they need only one dual power supply and not four different power sources.
I think a lot of simplification for using these devices.
For now I attach the two principle schemes used and then follow some simulations I think interesting.
I obviously look at your considerations on this and good V-fet amplifier at all.

Francesco
Attached Images
File Type: jpg New V-fet Output Stage.jpg (17.0 KB, 857 views)
File Type: jpg New V-fet Series Output Stage.jpg (20.6 KB, 845 views)
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Old 3rd July 2017, 11:58 PM   #2
Nelson Pass is offline Nelson Pass  United States
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New V-fet complementary output stage
Both of those are interesting and clever. Circuit 1 performanc is easily predicted,
and it is not difficult to calculate DC voltage distribution for #2, but I will be
interested in seeing your sim on it.
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Old 4th July 2017, 02:15 PM   #3
Antoinel is offline Antoinel  United States
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New V-fet complementary output stage
Hi mos57. Thanks for the new schematics. Please put example voltages for a stand alone N-SIT compound so as to understand the state of conduction of each VFET. Thanks.
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Old 4th July 2017, 06:56 PM   #4
mos57 is offline mos57  Italy
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Okay, i will begin with analysis relative to circuit 1. Please note that this is simulated in class AB condition.

Here I post images for:

1)schematic with voltage node in static condition;
2)Distortion Analysis at 1 W;
3)Relative Distortion numeric value at 1 W;
4)Distortion Analysis at 10 W;
5) " " " 20 W;
6) " " " 30 W;
7)Frequency " and Voltage Gain on 8 Ohm load.

P.S.:Not take too seriously this last FR analysis because model of Vfet not contain parasitic caps. It is here to show the GAIN stage in particular.
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:45 PM   #5
mos57 is offline mos57  Italy
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Here in the following simulation about circuit 2. Also this is a class AB amplifier.

Images are related to:

1) scheme with node voltage
2) distortion components at 1 W
3) numeric value of harmonic distortion at 1W
4) distortion components at 10 W
5) distortion components at 50 W
6) distortion components at 100 W
7) distortion components at 200 W
8) frequency response (in limited sense as above) and Voltage Gain.
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Old 5th July 2017, 12:42 AM   #6
Antoinel is offline Antoinel  United States
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New V-fet complementary output stage
Quote:
Originally Posted by mos57 View Post
Here in the following simulation about circuit 2. Also this is a class AB amplifier.

Images are related to:

1) scheme with node voltage
2) distortion components at 1 W
3) numeric value of harmonic distortion at 1W
4) distortion components at 10 W
5) distortion components at 50 W
6) distortion components at 100 W
7) distortion components at 200 W
8) frequency response (in limited sense as above) and Voltage Gain.
Thanks mos57 for the node voltages and the interesting sim results. I was curious and connected two SJDP120R085 power depletion FETs [stand alone] like you've connected the 2SK82s. The Vds of the bottom R085 was ~1 V at 1.3A , while the Vds of the top R085 was 20 Vds at 1.3 A. This behaviour appeared like shown in your schematic. Please explain the value of using a pair of [2SK82s] in your schematic versus using one only.

Both schematics show the use of overal negative feedback to each gate plus the interesting biasing scheme in each amp. Is this considered Schade-style negative feedback? if yes will it it augment the inherent triode character of the VFETs and/or alter them.

Thanks.
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Old 5th July 2017, 03:57 PM   #7
Antoinel is offline Antoinel  United States
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New V-fet complementary output stage
Quote:
Originally Posted by mos57 View Post
One of these exceptions is to use a Transnova scheme and myself in the past have presented some project with this solution, but I must confess that they have received (wrongly in my opinion) little consideration.
Hi mos57. Please find attached this interesting article by Jim Stricland inventor of Transova.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf the-transnova-topology.pdf (184.4 KB, 136 views)
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Old 5th July 2017, 05:17 PM   #8
mlloyd1 is offline mlloyd1  United States
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New V-fet complementary output stage
Thanks for sharing - I hadn't seen that one before!


There is also this at LinearAudio:
https://linearaudio.net/article-detail/2224
Unfortunately not free, but nevertheless, interesting reading on transnova-like designs. I think there is some discussion on it around here somewhere ...

mlloyd1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoinel View Post
Hi mos57. Please find attached this interesting article by Jim Stricland inventor of Transova.
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Old 5th July 2017, 10:33 PM   #9
mos57 is offline mos57  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoinel View Post
Thanks mos57 for the node voltages and the interesting sim results. I was curious and connected two SJDP120R085 power depletion FETs [stand alone] like you've connected the 2SK82s. The Vds of the bottom R085 was ~1 V at 1.3A , while the Vds of the top R085 was 20 Vds at 1.3 A. This behaviour appeared like shown in your schematic. Please explain the value of using a pair of [2SK82s] in your schematic versus using one only.

Both schematics show the use of overal negative feedback to each gate plus the interesting biasing scheme in each amp. Is this considered Schade-style negative feedback? if yes will it it augment the inherent triode character of the VFETs and/or alter them.

Thanks.
Hi Antoniel, if you only measure 1volt of VDS on your R085, unfortunately I think you just add a bunch of distortion.
For the R085 at the bottom you have to select the one with the lowest Vgso, in order to better split the VDS voltages of the two devices.

In actual realization, even in my scheme, I think I will use the 2 external Vfet with the lowest Vgs voltage and the two internal ones with the highest Vgso to allow a better distribution of voltages.

The reason for using two series devices is because the voltage gain is almost double, as shown by the attached results.
One second reason is that it seems to me that with two series devices, although this may seem counterintuitive, the higher order distortions seem to decrease, especially the 5th harmonic (this in the range of 1 to 10 watts) but I need more evidence to be definitely safe.

To answer the last question, I claim to have not sought either the Schade effect or the negative reaction, because my intention is to maximize the stadium gain. For this reason, I would have thought of using CCS in the future instead of simple resistances, but you also have to check the impact this modification might have on sound.

Thanks much for your document.
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Last edited by mos57; 5th July 2017 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 5th July 2017, 10:48 PM   #10
mos57 is offline mos57  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlloyd1 View Post
Thanks for sharing - I hadn't seen that one before!


There is also this at LinearAudio:
https://linearaudio.net/article-detail/2224
Unfortunately not free, but nevertheless, interesting reading on transnova-like designs. I think there is some discussion on it around here somewhere ...

mlloyd1
Thank you very much, very kind.

Regarding the Transnova circuitry and similarities to the circuit proposed here, I hope to shortly prepare an intuitive principle scheme to show how the audio currents go around the two circuits.
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