The light has gone on .....
Sorry, I concede, stupid me .... of course cables are directional!
Now, since there IS a directional effect, we most definitely DO NOT want this for any AC signal ..... ergo, I will build a new cable, where each channel is connected by twin lines in opposite directions, thereby removing this unwanted interference in signal transmission .... PERFECT.
And, I can even argue this with a semblance of reason !!!!
Now lets see, the fancy stuff sells for $1000/cable, so I ought to be able to charge at least double that !!!!!!!
I'M RICH ...... I've hit the mother load. Bring on the dancing girls ........ Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha !!!!
BTW, anyone want to invest - I really recon we could sell this one ????
cheers
mark
PS: http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
Sorry, I concede, stupid me .... of course cables are directional!
Now, since there IS a directional effect, we most definitely DO NOT want this for any AC signal ..... ergo, I will build a new cable, where each channel is connected by twin lines in opposite directions, thereby removing this unwanted interference in signal transmission .... PERFECT.
And, I can even argue this with a semblance of reason !!!!
Now lets see, the fancy stuff sells for $1000/cable, so I ought to be able to charge at least double that !!!!!!!
I'M RICH ...... I've hit the mother load. Bring on the dancing girls ........ Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha !!!!
BTW, anyone want to invest - I really recon we could sell this one ????
cheers
mark
PS: http://www.oakland.edu/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm
Because some cables picked up rf doesn´t mean they detected it. Rf detection means to get RF through using a diode. Maybe that´s a start to say there ARE microdiodes. But in the case of the wires it was probably just RF interference. But it could have been from anywhere like the directly from the mains power, grounds etc. And what does microdiode mean?
Is it a real diode or what? If it was I think the distortion would be a little high. And if there where microdiodes why don´t they work with signals in the 1Mhz area. Strange these diodes only choose to distort audio. Strange....
Is it a real diode or what? If it was I think the distortion would be a little high. And if there where microdiodes why don´t they work with signals in the 1Mhz area. Strange these diodes only choose to distort audio. Strange....
Just because cables pick up RF and you can hear radio
stations when your radio is switched off, it doesn't mean
that it's necessarily the cables that are detecting
(rectifying) the signal. I had this problem in a phono stage
circuit a few years ago and solved it by putting small
capacitors between base and collector of the input
transistors. This also sometimes happens in power
amplifiers that don't have a series inductor on their
outputs. The demodulation is due to non-linearities in the
active circuits.
Alex
stations when your radio is switched off, it doesn't mean
that it's necessarily the cables that are detecting
(rectifying) the signal. I had this problem in a phono stage
circuit a few years ago and solved it by putting small
capacitors between base and collector of the input
transistors. This also sometimes happens in power
amplifiers that don't have a series inductor on their
outputs. The demodulation is due to non-linearities in the
active circuits.
Alex
Promitheus and Alex M,
I didn´t say cables were detecting RF signals, I said cables AND input stages (their interaction).
As I told you, people listen RF detection coming from the phono stages and, after remove the cable, it disappears, so, they might think "if it´s happening with this cable (false statement) why not with other cables?"
BTW, it´s just my opinion. Maybe somebody at this Forum knows more about the origins of these misconceptions.
Regards,
blmn
I didn´t say cables were detecting RF signals, I said cables AND input stages (their interaction).
As I told you, people listen RF detection coming from the phono stages and, after remove the cable, it disappears, so, they might think "if it´s happening with this cable (false statement) why not with other cables?"
BTW, it´s just my opinion. Maybe somebody at this Forum knows more about the origins of these misconceptions.
Regards,
blmn
blmn,
I have no idea where the 'diode effect' idea for cables came from. I've seen it mentioned in promotional material and in several "White Papers" by various manufacturers, but I haven't a clue who was first. I regard it as a dubious explanation for cable direction at best since the effect of a diode (either clipping or rectifying) on an AC signal doesn't match what I hear (a subtle loss of detail, most noticable on the decay of notes or on imaging--certainly not a noticable distortion or on/off proposition like you'd expect if diodes were involved). Several companies make 'monocrystal' cable (although the diagrams they print generally show more than one crystal in the wire cross-section, so I'm not sure how mono the mono is...) in an attempt to circumvent the diode effect, but whether any sonic effect is due to reduction of contact between crystal boundaries or something else (insulation, winding strategies leading to capacitance or inductance, etc.) is anyone's guess.
RF detection isn't that difficult to arrange. Dirty contacts (various metal oxides on RCA jacks, for instance) can rectify a signal. Cleaning the contacts, sometimes simply by twisting them back and forth, will take care of it at least temporarily. Once upon a time, I knew amateur radio fellas who would complain about it, but I've long since lost touch with that community. At any rate, jacks are frequently gold plated these days, so oxidation of mechanical contact surfaces isn't much of a problem until the jack's been plugged in and out so many times that the plating wears off. Some people in particularly strong RF locations (New York City, for instance) report RF pickup though any number of means. Sometimes the effect is an intelligable radio signal coming through their speakers, sometimes a modulated static not unlike the poor reception you get downtown in large cities. To me it's all hypothetical, as I've never had an overt RF problem here.
Grey
I have no idea where the 'diode effect' idea for cables came from. I've seen it mentioned in promotional material and in several "White Papers" by various manufacturers, but I haven't a clue who was first. I regard it as a dubious explanation for cable direction at best since the effect of a diode (either clipping or rectifying) on an AC signal doesn't match what I hear (a subtle loss of detail, most noticable on the decay of notes or on imaging--certainly not a noticable distortion or on/off proposition like you'd expect if diodes were involved). Several companies make 'monocrystal' cable (although the diagrams they print generally show more than one crystal in the wire cross-section, so I'm not sure how mono the mono is...) in an attempt to circumvent the diode effect, but whether any sonic effect is due to reduction of contact between crystal boundaries or something else (insulation, winding strategies leading to capacitance or inductance, etc.) is anyone's guess.
RF detection isn't that difficult to arrange. Dirty contacts (various metal oxides on RCA jacks, for instance) can rectify a signal. Cleaning the contacts, sometimes simply by twisting them back and forth, will take care of it at least temporarily. Once upon a time, I knew amateur radio fellas who would complain about it, but I've long since lost touch with that community. At any rate, jacks are frequently gold plated these days, so oxidation of mechanical contact surfaces isn't much of a problem until the jack's been plugged in and out so many times that the plating wears off. Some people in particularly strong RF locations (New York City, for instance) report RF pickup though any number of means. Sometimes the effect is an intelligable radio signal coming through their speakers, sometimes a modulated static not unlike the poor reception you get downtown in large cities. To me it's all hypothetical, as I've never had an overt RF problem here.
Grey
From a cable brochure I saw from a big company, they show that cables with a lot of crystals in the metal structure, have micro diodes, that cause a cross-over distortion like amplifiers. Very small but noticeable. I can´t understand though why cross-over distortion and not clipping or something. I don´t know if this all has some scientific explenation but it all looks like a joke.
Cables
Looks like I created a monster when I mentioned cables
Much of my former life in electronics was spent in RF and I can tell you that cables do make a difference if considered as a transmission line. Sorry, this is far too involved to outline here (particularly since I'm sitting in an internet cafe on the opposite side of the world paying a small fortune for this!), so I'll leave it at that. I was interested to read Stereophile's finding that cable directionality could be measured with regards digital jitter. In audio we normally don't consider cables as transmission lines however the explanation did have techinical merit in the situation they looked at.
Having said that, the factors influencing "directionality" had nothing to do with the cable itself, but essentially "faulty" or at least imperfect termination. Again, without fully going into it, while appropriate in this specific situation (basically treated as RF), the explanation would not seem to be relavant at audio frequencies.
Personally I have experimented with interconnects and have not been able to hear any difference, however must add that I'm not saying that there isn't any, just that I didn't hear any. I agree the audio signal is AC, hence have a difficult time accepting many reasons why there may be a difference in reversing cables.
I have however found a significant effect in different speaker cables. Again many of the explanations provided by manufacturers are simply BS as far as I'm concerned, but after months of trying to find out why, I concluded that the dialectric used may have an influence on the signal (and no have no "scientific" proof of this so please feel free to shoot this hypohtesis down in flames). Most however would accept that the different dialectrics used in capacitors does influence the sound, so it may not be a totally fanciful reason.
Cheers,
Pete
Looks like I created a monster when I mentioned cables
Much of my former life in electronics was spent in RF and I can tell you that cables do make a difference if considered as a transmission line. Sorry, this is far too involved to outline here (particularly since I'm sitting in an internet cafe on the opposite side of the world paying a small fortune for this!), so I'll leave it at that. I was interested to read Stereophile's finding that cable directionality could be measured with regards digital jitter. In audio we normally don't consider cables as transmission lines however the explanation did have techinical merit in the situation they looked at.
Having said that, the factors influencing "directionality" had nothing to do with the cable itself, but essentially "faulty" or at least imperfect termination. Again, without fully going into it, while appropriate in this specific situation (basically treated as RF), the explanation would not seem to be relavant at audio frequencies.
Personally I have experimented with interconnects and have not been able to hear any difference, however must add that I'm not saying that there isn't any, just that I didn't hear any. I agree the audio signal is AC, hence have a difficult time accepting many reasons why there may be a difference in reversing cables.
I have however found a significant effect in different speaker cables. Again many of the explanations provided by manufacturers are simply BS as far as I'm concerned, but after months of trying to find out why, I concluded that the dialectric used may have an influence on the signal (and no have no "scientific" proof of this so please feel free to shoot this hypohtesis down in flames). Most however would accept that the different dialectrics used in capacitors does influence the sound, so it may not be a totally fanciful reason.
Cheers,
Pete
The problem isn´t if there is difference or not. There is? We are talking here if there are micro diodes or directionality. The geometry of a cable has a lot to do with the sound. The shielding has a lot to do with noise and so on.
Specially in speaker cables the geometry and the design have a lot to do with quality because we have large currents. A cable with low inductance will be better and so on. But it sucks to read garbage about fantastic things. I don´t know if most of you have heard this ot not. From a well known company in their commercial they say "See digital, hear digital" Is that crap or not. Just using a word that cool like digital doesn´t give you the right to say anything you want. If you find me one person that hears digital ok. hahaha
ilias
Specially in speaker cables the geometry and the design have a lot to do with quality because we have large currents. A cable with low inductance will be better and so on. But it sucks to read garbage about fantastic things. I don´t know if most of you have heard this ot not. From a well known company in their commercial they say "See digital, hear digital" Is that crap or not. Just using a word that cool like digital doesn´t give you the right to say anything you want. If you find me one person that hears digital ok. hahaha
ilias
Hi All,
For those who haven't read it, Nelson has a reasonable article on speaker cables:
http://www.passlabs.com/articles/spkrcabl.htm
It almost contains some science <large grin> !
For those who haven't read it, Nelson has a reasonable article on speaker cables:
http://www.passlabs.com/articles/spkrcabl.htm
It almost contains some science <large grin> !
You guys are very entertaining.You are all so sure of yourselves.I have a piece of wire here that will pass AC in one direction 20dB beter than it will in the other direction.It measures less than 0.01 ohms DC resistance.If you want to know how it works you can call me at 319-295-8856 at LAB 40 from 4PM~12AM central time.ROFLMAO.
ok ok. We get your point.
But for audio things are different.
We are talking here about what commercials for cables are saying trying to sell very expensive and what the truth is.
The problem is that cables have other problems that have to be solved, you see that only from a few serious cable companies. The rest of the companies "invent" in my opinion fantastic specs and figures for those who don´t know much or understand much (me included sometimes) so they can raise the prices. Or else they would have to sell normal copper at a normal price.
But for audio things are different.
We are talking here about what commercials for cables are saying trying to sell very expensive and what the truth is.
The problem is that cables have other problems that have to be solved, you see that only from a few serious cable companies. The rest of the companies "invent" in my opinion fantastic specs and figures for those who don´t know much or understand much (me included sometimes) so they can raise the prices. Or else they would have to sell normal copper at a normal price.
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