I've got a pair of Quad ESL57 sitting in a smallish room 11x15 feet. I'm currently rotating EL34 PP, 300B SE and modded Naim amps through them. Each setup has its own rewards, though if I had to pick one, I'd go with the EL34 (Assemblage ST40).
I'm looking to try something new. OTL is out for now since the cost of tubes is a bit too much. The Aleph J is appealing as is a KSA K50 clone. Something completely different might be the AMB power amps. Anyone had a chance to compare any of these on 57s or other electrostatic?
I'm looking to try something new. OTL is out for now since the cost of tubes is a bit too much. The Aleph J is appealing as is a KSA K50 clone. Something completely different might be the AMB power amps. Anyone had a chance to compare any of these on 57s or other electrostatic?
The F5 was on my consideration list. I was thinking about doing an Aleph and then doing an F5, just swapping out the driver boards.
AMB are these guys:
The β24 Fully-differential Power Amplifier
They do some cool DIY stuff that is very well supported. I have their DAC and it is pretty nice.
AMB are these guys:
The β24 Fully-differential Power Amplifier
They do some cool DIY stuff that is very well supported. I have their DAC and it is pretty nice.
Do you want to open this can of worms?
And, please tell me how you would "equalize" outputs for amps with flat frequency response? The only place that amplitude EQ would have an effect is in the bass. We can skip the bass, and use them from midbass up, if you prefer?
Also can you cite any double blind tests that show that equalizers are inaudible?
move ahead folks, nothing to see here...
_-_-
And, please tell me how you would "equalize" outputs for amps with flat frequency response? The only place that amplitude EQ would have an effect is in the bass. We can skip the bass, and use them from midbass up, if you prefer?
Also can you cite any double blind tests that show that equalizers are inaudible?
move ahead folks, nothing to see here...
_-_-
Really?
A pretty entertaining little article to read about a famous encounter. Granted, this particular event related to digital processing, it is fun to read. For the moment, I can't google Stan's article on amp testing - perhaps somebody can find it faster.
Boston Audio Society - ABX Testing article
The highly admired Stan Lipshitz (who has been a Quad ESL guy in the past) has shown in articles published in professional, peer-reviewed journals that once equalized, people are unable to make the judgments they sometimes loudly, even abusively, claim they can. In the link to the Boston Audio Society, the person being tested is Tiefenbrun, the man behind the fine Linn brand.
Ben
Might be this article:
S. P. Lipshitz and J. Vanderkooy, "The Great Debate: Subjective Evaluation", J. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol. 29, pp. 482-491 (1981 July/Aug.)
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I suspect for some of us that even if we couldn't tell a difference, it's irrelevant because our hobby is to obsess over amplifiers - we simply wouldn't care about double blind testing stuff
In my case, I've found every amplifier I've built to sound different, in some subtle way.
I remember doing an internet search for comparisons between the F5 and Aleph and found a lot of folk saying they liked the Aleph. The implication was that the F5 was a bit too honest and at the end they wanted an amp to listen to music so the Aleph did it for them better than the F5. Sorry, can't remember where I read that, but that's the summary that stuck in my mind from what I found.
In my case, I've found every amplifier I've built to sound different, in some subtle way.
I remember doing an internet search for comparisons between the F5 and Aleph and found a lot of folk saying they liked the Aleph. The implication was that the F5 was a bit too honest and at the end they wanted an amp to listen to music so the Aleph did it for them better than the F5. Sorry, can't remember where I read that, but that's the summary that stuck in my mind from what I found.
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I suspect for some of us that even if we couldn't tell a difference, it's irrelevant because our hobby is to obsess over amplifiers - we simply wouldn't care about double blind testing stuff
Yes, I'm busy obsessing over output impedance for my new home-brew headphone amp.
Years ago, I did a social-survey study of the 400 Highway System neighboring homes (similar to US Interstates) as the government considered different kinds of noise barriers. Funny thing, we found only one kind of noise barrier that consistently reduced the highway racket: the one you built yourself.*
Ben
*You may giggle at that result (unless you are a golden-ear), but it led to an obvious policy strategy... which, of course, was never adopted by Ontario.
No, no, no. Please don't jack.
I'm interested in building a new amp for Quad 57s that is different (topology, sound, heat dissipation, aesthetics, blah blah) from the ones I use. I am interested in DIY Class A because I've never built one before. If you have had one or more in an ESL setup, I'm interested in your opinion.
I'm interested in building a new amp for Quad 57s that is different (topology, sound, heat dissipation, aesthetics, blah blah) from the ones I use. I am interested in DIY Class A because I've never built one before. If you have had one or more in an ESL setup, I'm interested in your opinion.
Respectfully, it is no jack and I am addressing your topic directly. Granted, it appears to be the sort of mainstream opinion which you disagree with.
Yes, I can tell you with exceptional confidence exactly what amp to build: a direct-drive high-voltage amp. Even compared to my 39-lb Dayton-Wright behemoth transformers, the benefit is dramatic.... OK, not double-blind, but 20 years of listening counts a little.
In my opinion, ineffective to fuss with marginal differences between fiercely expensive amps when you could make a Sanders amp and hook it to your Quads. After buying life insurance.
These are discussed in various places at this forum and elsewhere ("Sanders" makes a good search term).
I hope that is no jack.
Ben
Yes, I can tell you with exceptional confidence exactly what amp to build: a direct-drive high-voltage amp. Even compared to my 39-lb Dayton-Wright behemoth transformers, the benefit is dramatic.... OK, not double-blind, but 20 years of listening counts a little.
In my opinion, ineffective to fuss with marginal differences between fiercely expensive amps when you could make a Sanders amp and hook it to your Quads. After buying life insurance.
These are discussed in various places at this forum and elsewhere ("Sanders" makes a good search term).
I hope that is no jack.
Ben
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![m60-signal[1].gif](/community/data/attachments/397/397859-d9480423368b77dda448d36c3212b035.jpg)
Just my views for what they are worth. Little while ago I constructed for test purposes the Ksa50 Kline JLH 1996 and the F5. Ran each from identical power supplies into Spendor BC1's using Quad pre amp. The results, I did not like the F5' the JLH was better but the Krell Klone was by far and away favourite for me. As I said just my view, we are all different
Alan
Alan
Don't know why Bear is so down on Krell, maybe an isolated case? The ones I.ve built are not harsh in any way. But I use the 100 clone mono blocks on the 57.
I also have the 50 and 150 clone monoblocks and the 50 is a little too rolled off on top and the 150 is a close second
With the Quad protection boards of course.
Ralph K. OTL might beat them all, but until I build them, just speculating.
Regards
David
I also have the 50 and 150 clone monoblocks and the 50 is a little too rolled off on top and the 150 is a close second
With the Quad protection boards of course.
Ralph K. OTL might beat them all, but until I build them, just speculating.
Regards
David
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Joined 2009
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If you are considering the Krell, I'd also offer my TGM7, biassed into Class AB or Class A (depending on the size of your heatsink!). Like the Krell it has a dual differential LTP input but a simpler OPS and can be used with rugged MOSFETs. In Class AB is sounds superb. The amplifier it's based on (SKA) is very well regarded.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/239418-tgm7-amplifier-based-greg-ball-ska.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/239418-tgm7-amplifier-based-greg-ball-ska.html
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Krell....i have owned a lot of the older amp an preamps....i have 2 kbLs here now 2 KSLs...Dac 32x..64x.amp now KST100 all new caps.....
But had KSA100,KSA MDA 300s KSA 250.....the KST a/b amp is the sweets only one board... no wire..................had 3
But all this krell HAS to be....... an can be biased an DC set right.....most dont... may be thay never new you could ......krell never made anything that the bias cant be set....maybe the New....i have not had any
Or it can sound like BAD sand any way you cut IT...
Circlotron OTL .....i have a pr of M60s....an a diy MA1......down side....HOTHOTHOT
All just one mans O_pine
But had KSA100,KSA MDA 300s KSA 250.....the KST a/b amp is the sweets only one board... no wire..................had 3
But all this krell HAS to be....... an can be biased an DC set right.....most dont... may be thay never new you could ......krell never made anything that the bias cant be set....maybe the New....i have not had any
Or it can sound like BAD sand any way you cut IT...
Circlotron OTL .....i have a pr of M60s....an a diy MA1......down side....HOTHOTHOT
All just one mans O_pine
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Well, there ya go again!
Anyhow, alibear, you see one can NOT run the F5 from the same supply that you would use for a typical class AB amplifier like a Krell and get reasonable results. Why? The main technical reason is that the PSRR of the F5 is poor. So, the test conditions are critical when making comparisons, in this case the assumption that using the same supply makes for a "flat playing field", when the opposite is true.
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I am going by the actual Krell products. Homebrew versions may or may not be different, I have no way to know that. My opinion of the Krell amps was that the early KSA versions were "interesting" but had some sort of oddness to the sound whenever I heard them. Powerful, but odd. The newer "plateau bias" stuff I found very different than the earlier models, but also something amiss. If you like them, I don't mind.
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As far as direct drive on the Quads? A bit difficult to do since the Quads are not full range cells, but rather are three different cells, bass, mid and treble in one enclosure. So, that implies three amps. Possible, but hot, large and expensive.
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As far as ABX, the BAS (especially in 1984), and that whole idea, I'd rather avoid the discussion, thanks. I don't pretend to have an "inside information" on the ultimate "truth", or take a position that ABX could not possibly yield useful results. But, for a variety of reasons, I don't think it has thus far done so without ambiguity and while presenting controls for confounding factors, nor have any published tests that I am aware of been reproduced by other researchers yielding the same results (assuming the results were valid tests of what was purported was being tested). Really, please let's leave this lie where it has fallen - all I have done is to state clearly my reservations. We're not going to resolve these points, certainly not in this thread. Right?
Anyhow, alibear, you see one can NOT run the F5 from the same supply that you would use for a typical class AB amplifier like a Krell and get reasonable results. Why? The main technical reason is that the PSRR of the F5 is poor. So, the test conditions are critical when making comparisons, in this case the assumption that using the same supply makes for a "flat playing field", when the opposite is true.
---------------
I am going by the actual Krell products. Homebrew versions may or may not be different, I have no way to know that. My opinion of the Krell amps was that the early KSA versions were "interesting" but had some sort of oddness to the sound whenever I heard them. Powerful, but odd. The newer "plateau bias" stuff I found very different than the earlier models, but also something amiss. If you like them, I don't mind.
--------------
As far as direct drive on the Quads? A bit difficult to do since the Quads are not full range cells, but rather are three different cells, bass, mid and treble in one enclosure. So, that implies three amps. Possible, but hot, large and expensive.
-----------------
As far as ABX, the BAS (especially in 1984), and that whole idea, I'd rather avoid the discussion, thanks. I don't pretend to have an "inside information" on the ultimate "truth", or take a position that ABX could not possibly yield useful results. But, for a variety of reasons, I don't think it has thus far done so without ambiguity and while presenting controls for confounding factors, nor have any published tests that I am aware of been reproduced by other researchers yielding the same results (assuming the results were valid tests of what was purported was being tested). Really, please let's leave this lie where it has fallen - all I have done is to state clearly my reservations. We're not going to resolve these points, certainly not in this thread. Right?
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