Hello all, Well like they say about the best laid plans...I didn't finish last weekend or get as far as I would of thought I would have by this time, but tomorrow is another day! At this time I will attach a link to view my progress thus far. I am quite satisfied that is turning out as good as I expected it would! I have not taken any shortcuts as you will see from my pictures!
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Thanks Jer, Charlie, Wachara C. You all have been a great resource in assisting me in this build. I hope to post the final pictures tomorrow when I hope to complete the build.
Wachara C...on your stretching jig I see a reference percent of stretching measurements, are you seeking 1.5% elongation for 6um film in both vertical and horizontal axis?
Thanks,
Jerry
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Thanks Jer, Charlie, Wachara C. You all have been a great resource in assisting me in this build. I hope to post the final pictures tomorrow when I hope to complete the build.
Wachara C...on your stretching jig I see a reference percent of stretching measurements, are you seeking 1.5% elongation for 6um film in both vertical and horizontal axis?
Thanks,
Jerry
Very cool pictures! I'm on FB as well!
I think you are going to be shocked (he,he) when you fire those things up!!!
Those are nice size panels.
I am contemplating my 4 footers now and I am working out the details of the bass units.
I am going to try a detuned ported cabinet first.
When I get some more drivers I will try a Dipole bass setup.
Keep us posted! jer
I think you are going to be shocked (he,he) when you fire those things up!!!
Those are nice size panels.
I am contemplating my 4 footers now and I am working out the details of the bass units.
I am going to try a detuned ported cabinet first.
When I get some more drivers I will try a Dipole bass setup.
Keep us posted! jer
Thanks Jer,...and by shocked I hope not literally...LOL. actually I have no idea how they will sound...I currently have a set of .5QR Magnaplaner along side a powered sub woofer and have enjoyed them after my recent rebuild! I was hoping that these will sound as good or better than the Magnaplanars? and if so then... for the next issue,tubes vs solid state amp, the quest continues....
Regards,
Jerry
Regards,
Jerry
Ha,ha! I did mean the sound! 🙂
It will be very interesting to hear your comparison to the Magnaplanars!
I love those tubes but I much prefer the non colored sound of solid state,But that is just me.
Especialy since I like to crank it up once in awhile.
I know that my big amps don't have any issues with low impedence's that the ESL's present at the higher end of the spectrum.
jer
It will be very interesting to hear your comparison to the Magnaplanars!
I love those tubes but I much prefer the non colored sound of solid state,But that is just me.
Especialy since I like to crank it up once in awhile.
I know that my big amps don't have any issues with low impedence's that the ESL's present at the higher end of the spectrum.
jer
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Hi Dochungwell,
Nice pictures! I'm sure that you're enjoying making them.
No, I only look at how it elongates on the shorter side. 1.5% of the longer side is way too much, and the diaphragm would break long before you can achieve that. 🙂
Good luck on your build.
Wachara C.
Nice pictures! I'm sure that you're enjoying making them.
No, I only look at how it elongates on the shorter side. 1.5% of the longer side is way too much, and the diaphragm would break long before you can achieve that. 🙂
Good luck on your build.
Wachara C.
I agree with Wachara on this. Go slow pumping in the air and stop when you've got 1.5% elongation across the panel width.
And you're not going to believe how fantastic it's going to sound!
You will need to apply some EQ, though, to compensate the dipole phase cancellation-- otherwise the panel will sound thin on the low end. The phase cancellation losses begin when the wavelength of the sound is about 1/4 of the minimum width of the panel + baffle (frame). For the frequencies below that threshold the output will fall off at 6db per octave.
Can't wait to hear your impressions!
Charlie
Jer, It is funny that you mentioned tubes color the sound. I have been involved for many years building tube guitar tube amps and analog effect pedals, and one of the reasons is that they do not color the sound. In the musicians world analog vs digital has been a topic for discussion for many years an almost unanimously siding with analog for effects, tubes over solid-state, and geranium over silicon for semi conductors, carbon resistors vs metal film etc...
When it comes to music reproduction I don't have enough experience or knowledge base to weigh-in on that discussion. What I can comment on is that when I use OP amp chips in building effects pedals they have a profound effect on sound coloration. A good example of this is when I placed a socket in a distortion pedal I modified to try to capture that Stevie Ray Vaughn sound, the op amp chips made nearly all the difference when swapping them from one to another either adding a bit of distortion (generally desirable), or mid-boost clean sound etc...
Is this belief the general consensus shared throughout the hi-fi community?
Regards,
Jerry
When it comes to music reproduction I don't have enough experience or knowledge base to weigh-in on that discussion. What I can comment on is that when I use OP amp chips in building effects pedals they have a profound effect on sound coloration. A good example of this is when I placed a socket in a distortion pedal I modified to try to capture that Stevie Ray Vaughn sound, the op amp chips made nearly all the difference when swapping them from one to another either adding a bit of distortion (generally desirable), or mid-boost clean sound etc...
Is this belief the general consensus shared throughout the hi-fi community?
Regards,
Jerry
Hey Charlie, I agree that EQ will need to be present to shape the sound. The maggies I have sound significantly thin without my subs. I would Imagine this will also be the case with these ESL's. I am still on the fence as to what I will do to resolve the low frequencies, I initially thought I was going for a hybrid build, but after listening to the inexpensive subs an high freq cut-off with my setup I seem to be fine with this configuration.
Jerry
Jerry
I'm not sure I understand where you're going... do you mean that you want to run the panels full-range (no crossover) and just supplement the bottom end with subwoofers?
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Yes I agree,Jerry,I didn't mean to sound objective or to start a debate as there are many many different factors involved as a tube system can be built to be extremely clean and sweet sounding.
The same goes for opamps as well.
Some do sound different than others in the same circuit sometimes, depnding on the type of circuit and their range of operation.
I found that out when I re-opamped my Fostex 454
I too have built many effect units and that was how I first got my feet wet,I devolped my own version of an octavizer that work great.
I couldn't tell you how many hours it took for me to get it just right! he,he 🙂
Personaly, I would love to eventualy setup an all tube system to just listen to music with.🙂
But since I got into recording I have found out first hand how any subtly's in the signal's chain can make or break a mix.
So I tend to trust the dryness (as it has been called) of my solid state amps not to mention that they are fairley powerful.
I used to run them on my Apogee Duette's and they are crystal clear and balanced.
Except now I am down to only one amp, so, I got some repairing too do.🙁
I am curious as to how you have your subwoofer system setup as there have been many deep discussions as to what works best for dipole's.
The system I have now works great and will be over kill once I add 6 more 8" real subs, But I don't have any dipole's setup as of yet.
jer
The same goes for opamps as well.
Some do sound different than others in the same circuit sometimes, depnding on the type of circuit and their range of operation.
I found that out when I re-opamped my Fostex 454
I too have built many effect units and that was how I first got my feet wet,I devolped my own version of an octavizer that work great.
I couldn't tell you how many hours it took for me to get it just right! he,he 🙂
Personaly, I would love to eventualy setup an all tube system to just listen to music with.🙂
But since I got into recording I have found out first hand how any subtly's in the signal's chain can make or break a mix.
So I tend to trust the dryness (as it has been called) of my solid state amps not to mention that they are fairley powerful.
I used to run them on my Apogee Duette's and they are crystal clear and balanced.
Except now I am down to only one amp, so, I got some repairing too do.🙁
I am curious as to how you have your subwoofer system setup as there have been many deep discussions as to what works best for dipole's.
The system I have now works great and will be over kill once I add 6 more 8" real subs, But I don't have any dipole's setup as of yet.
jer
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I'm not sure I understand where you're going... do you mean that you want to run the panels full-range (no crossover) and just supplement the bottom end with subwoofers?
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Hello Charlie, At this point my panels are essentially clones of yours other than the size, I hope...Initially I will try to run these panels without cross overs directly from the amp and go from there. I will have a better understanding for it needs once the panels are actually completed.
Jerry
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Hello Charlie, At this point my panels are essentially clones of yours other than the size, I hope...Initially I will try to run these panels without cross overs directly from the amp and go from there. I will have a better understanding for it needs once the panels are actually completed.
Jerry
What size are your stepup transformers?
You wiil get alot of distortions (transformer saturation),unless they are large, in the lower range of the audio spectrum.
Once the core reaches saturation it is more of a (exterem)load on the amp.
Also a smaller D/S spacing may not give you enough room for large excursions.
They will sound wonderful range at a low SPL and up close ,But when you start to crank them up these anoyences will become apparent.
I have been running my little panels full range and I much prefer them that way but they only work at low volumes and nearfield in that mode.
Since I haven't built a proper crossover I manged to conjur up one using some NP capacitors and pull as much lows out I can using my mixers filters.
Also the resonate frequency of my diagphram is at 70hz to 90hz range (averaged from several diagphram rebiulds) this also causes execessive exursions in that region and was very hard to control and caused stator clipping (slapping) at higher levels.
There have been many discussions on how to dampen these and I have tried a few with mediocre to poor results,although using the silkscreen method I have not tried yet.
Generaly I have found that any method of dampening seems to reduce the high end detail abit,But this is something that I wish to explore more in th future.
jer
Cheers! jer
You wiil get alot of distortions (transformer saturation),unless they are large, in the lower range of the audio spectrum.
Once the core reaches saturation it is more of a (exterem)load on the amp.
Also a smaller D/S spacing may not give you enough room for large excursions.
They will sound wonderful range at a low SPL and up close ,But when you start to crank them up these anoyences will become apparent.
I have been running my little panels full range and I much prefer them that way but they only work at low volumes and nearfield in that mode.
Since I haven't built a proper crossover I manged to conjur up one using some NP capacitors and pull as much lows out I can using my mixers filters.
Also the resonate frequency of my diagphram is at 70hz to 90hz range (averaged from several diagphram rebiulds) this also causes execessive exursions in that region and was very hard to control and caused stator clipping (slapping) at higher levels.
There have been many discussions on how to dampen these and I have tried a few with mediocre to poor results,although using the silkscreen method I have not tried yet.
Generaly I have found that any method of dampening seems to reduce the high end detail abit,But this is something that I wish to explore more in th future.
jer
Cheers! jer
I will be using the Antec AN #0506 torrodal transformers that Charlie suggested which I am hoping will work. I am new to speaker technology and terminology so you may need to explain things in plain terms.
I just completed tensioning both diagraphrams which i will post shortly. I will spray the licron tomorrow since the hummidity is too high and we just had a severe thunder storm here in Miami.
I am currious to hear how these speakers will sound just using an amp without any crossover. What should I expect, thin and life-less, or flat response in need of mid to low frequency support?
BTW should I prep/clean the film surface with acetone prior to the Licron coating?
Thanks,
Jerry
Jerry
I just completed tensioning both diagraphrams which i will post shortly. I will spray the licron tomorrow since the hummidity is too high and we just had a severe thunder storm here in Miami.
I am currious to hear how these speakers will sound just using an amp without any crossover. What should I expect, thin and life-less, or flat response in need of mid to low frequency support?
BTW should I prep/clean the film surface with acetone prior to the Licron coating?
Thanks,
Jerry
Jerry
They won't sound "lifeless", that's for sure. I would expect them to sound pretty much as Jer described: OK at low volume with distortion developing as bass energy saturates the tranny cores.
As you know from my blogpage, I use the Farnell/Multi-Comp trannys in my speakers but I did try out the Antek trannys and verified that they work OK and sound fine when driving hybrid panels crossed over at 300 hz with a 24db/oct crossover slope. I would not recommend those trannys for full range for the reasons that Jer mentioned.
If running full range, I would expect a nasty peak at the diaphragm resonance and overall anemic bass due to phase cancellation (unless you are listening from very close range).
I would bite the bullet and get a cheap 24/db crossover and bi-amp those panels in a hybrid setup.
Great suggestion Charlie, for the crossover solution. BTW I find that the Maggies share similar charisteristics. And dont worry Charlie I wouldn't be upset with you if the transformers didnt work...as a DIY'er often times you take your chances relying upon the suggestions of those with more expierence than youself, and those suggestions often just provides the DIY'er with a starting point. I am grateful for ALL of your assistance with this build thus far, and truley am grateful to you and others who have assisted newbees such as myself!
This is an awesome forum, and I am glad to be a part of it!
a.Wayne, the photos can be found at the begining of this thread....however I can attach it here also.
ESL BUILD PHOTOS | Facebook
Thanks,
Jerry
This is an awesome forum, and I am glad to be a part of it!
a.Wayne, the photos can be found at the begining of this thread....however I can attach it here also.
ESL BUILD PHOTOS | Facebook
Thanks,
Jerry
You are doing great, as this is a wonderful technology!
this thread should give you a better understanding as to the magic of the transformer,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/161485-step-up-transformer-design.html#post2088330
and this is a simplified summary of that thread,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/181041-my-2-nd-esl-attempt-2.html#post2520508
as I had done in indepth study on those mysterious devices.
I know I keep promising to finnish it, But, I will once I get going again as I am just slow lately! 🙂
jer
this thread should give you a better understanding as to the magic of the transformer,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/161485-step-up-transformer-design.html#post2088330
and this is a simplified summary of that thread,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/181041-my-2-nd-esl-attempt-2.html#post2520508
as I had done in indepth study on those mysterious devices.
I know I keep promising to finnish it, But, I will once I get going again as I am just slow lately! 🙂
jer
Great job Jerry,
On my first attempt at building a stat panel I broke the diaphragm while stretching it-- it's a bit nerve wracking, isn't it?
On my first attempt at building a stat panel I broke the diaphragm while stretching it-- it's a bit nerve wracking, isn't it?
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