I'm continuing with my projects, which include doing some much-needed cap replacement on some vintage amps, receivers, etc. I've decided on Nichicon because they have a huge variety of caps and I'm having better luck finding the sizes, values, and mechanical specs (mounting points and exterior dimensions).
HOWEVER...
There seems to be a big bunch of info about which Nichicon grades are appropriate for what circuits. Everything I've seen in both Nichicon data sheets as well as stuff I've read here tells me I should be looking for KZ, FG, and KA in the audio path, and KG/KS for the power supply and supporting circuits.
I'm getting ready to put my order in, and I've been discussing it with a product advisor at one of the biggest parts houses. Today I get an email from him telling me I should be looking at ES for the signal path, and FG and KZ for the power.
That doesn't make sense to me. I haven't seen an FG above 4700uF, and definitely not in KZ, where the highest value appears to be 1000uF. So how can I build out the power supply with those grades? And I've never once seen anyone here recommend using FG or KZ for power - only signal. Did the guy get his recommendations backwards?
What is the most appropriate cap for power filters, as well as the supporting regulation circuitry? What about the stuff like audio paths, especially when you get into preamps?
TIA
In short - what should I use where, and what should I avoid using in particular situations?
HOWEVER...
There seems to be a big bunch of info about which Nichicon grades are appropriate for what circuits. Everything I've seen in both Nichicon data sheets as well as stuff I've read here tells me I should be looking for KZ, FG, and KA in the audio path, and KG/KS for the power supply and supporting circuits.
I'm getting ready to put my order in, and I've been discussing it with a product advisor at one of the biggest parts houses. Today I get an email from him telling me I should be looking at ES for the signal path, and FG and KZ for the power.
That doesn't make sense to me. I haven't seen an FG above 4700uF, and definitely not in KZ, where the highest value appears to be 1000uF. So how can I build out the power supply with those grades? And I've never once seen anyone here recommend using FG or KZ for power - only signal. Did the guy get his recommendations backwards?
What is the most appropriate cap for power filters, as well as the supporting regulation circuitry? What about the stuff like audio paths, especially when you get into preamps?
TIA
In short - what should I use where, and what should I avoid using in particular situations?
Ignore product advisers at distributors. They know nothing and just look in catalogs for info.
To start with, you can use Digikey or Mouser's parts screening tools to find options.
Blocked
https://www.mouser.com/Nichicon/Pas...m-Electrolytic-Capacitors/_/N-75hqt?P=1z0zlbm
To start with, you can use Digikey or Mouser's parts screening tools to find options.
Blocked
https://www.mouser.com/Nichicon/Pas...m-Electrolytic-Capacitors/_/N-75hqt?P=1z0zlbm
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Nichicon ES are the bipolars, if they are coupling caps then yes they would be appropriate, also probably good for feedback cap. But otherwise what you said originally fits with what I would do. KZ, FG, KA being the ordering from highest spec to lowest (the KA's are 105deg parts, but otherwise probably not as good as the KZ,FG on DF spec), but they also have the advantage of being smaller for a given capacitance/voltage as compared to the KZ's and FG's.
Tony.
Tony.
Nichicon has some diagrams showing some features and how it positions the various caps:
NICHICON CORPORATION | Product & Technology
NICHICON CORPORATION | Product & Technology
NICHICON CORPORATION | Product & Technology
NICHICON CORPORATION | Product & Technology
Thanks, but I've been poring over those same search tools for weeks, and while those charts are great for narrowing caps down via the specs I mentioned, they aren't any good at showing which caps go in what circuits. I'm not advanced enough to glance at a chart and decide whether a cap is more appropriate for a given duty than any other. I just discovered the TNT clinic on components for power supplies and I'm still trying to work through the math. And I bet once I do understand it, someone will post an article proving why TNT is completely wrong.
BTW, the guy helping me isn't working for a distributor, he's working for one of the larger companies supplying the audio hobby with passives. He lives this stuff, and I'm really surprised that he got this stuff almost exactly backwards.
Thanks for the help Tony, and I appreciate you confirming what I had suspected. I have no idea why the guy told me almost the exact opposite of what you said.
So to confirm - you'd say KZ, FG, or KA in the signal path, and what about the power "grid"? Should I stick with the KG or look elsewhere in the lineup?
Speaking of feedback and the ES - would you say that the ES would be more appropriate for a feedback circuit than anything else Nichicon makes? I'd have to adjust my shopping list if thats the case because I was going to use FG in the feedback circuit when I got around to it.
Absolutely awesome, Dennis! I've been all over their site and never saw those docs. That should get me on the right path.
The comment about using the ES in the feedback circuit is based one something I read a long time ago that using bipolars in this location can lower distortion, but I don't remember where I read that (I thought it was something Douglas Self had said, but maybe my memory is incorrect).
The KG's were recommended to me by Hugh Dean, I bought some 10,000uF 100V ones to redo the power supply in my mosfet amp, and sadly they are still sitting in the box, they will need reforming as i bought them probably more than five years ago, So I have not actually used them as yet.
If you don't need large high voltage caps, you could also look at using FG's in the power supply. I've used them when I had lower voltage/ capacitance requirements.
Note I'm not one to do cap comparisons, and don't have any strong opinions on caps. I look at the specs, and get somewhat swayed by some of the marketing when specs are similar and one brand specifically caters to audio applications. I also tend to listen to what respected designers use themselves
edit: found reference to the bipolar for feedback cap on Bonsai's web page http://hifisonix.com/wordpress/wp-c...ouglas-Selfs-8-Distortions-and-a-Few-More.pdf #8
Tony.
The KG's were recommended to me by Hugh Dean, I bought some 10,000uF 100V ones to redo the power supply in my mosfet amp, and sadly they are still sitting in the box, they will need reforming as i bought them probably more than five years ago, So I have not actually used them as yet.
If you don't need large high voltage caps, you could also look at using FG's in the power supply. I've used them when I had lower voltage/ capacitance requirements.
Note I'm not one to do cap comparisons, and don't have any strong opinions on caps. I look at the specs, and get somewhat swayed by some of the marketing when specs are similar and one brand specifically caters to audio applications. I also tend to listen to what respected designers use themselves
edit: found reference to the bipolar for feedback cap on Bonsai's web page http://hifisonix.com/wordpress/wp-c...ouglas-Selfs-8-Distortions-and-a-Few-More.pdf #8
Tony.
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I've been using nichicon 5000 hour up service life caps in both power supply & coupling applications in my amps & organs. UPT & UHE are lines I have used dozens of. No problems. I don't understand the desire to order caps that aren't in stock anywhere. I'm not going to start a factory, I need a distributor to open up the box and sell me 2 or at most 10 each.
Newark & digikey will tell you the service life in the selector table. Mouser makes you download each datasheet & read it yourself. Alliedelec only carries 1000 hour caps, which in my experience last up to 3 years in 2000 hr/year amp service. I've re-e-capped my ST70 4 times in 50 years, and that is too much work. No more short life caps.
Newark & digikey will tell you the service life in the selector table. Mouser makes you download each datasheet & read it yourself. Alliedelec only carries 1000 hour caps, which in my experience last up to 3 years in 2000 hr/year amp service. I've re-e-capped my ST70 4 times in 50 years, and that is too much work. No more short life caps.
I'm no great expert on capacitor types. But, on the recommendation of someone here, I have used Nichicon ES in an amplifier signal path. They made a significant sound quality improvement over the Elna Cerafine caps that I had there previously. (And then replacing those in turn with film caps brought a further improvement.)
I agree, and there appears to be a pretty serious cap shortage in certain lines right now. When I was searching for filter caps about a month ago I found that every single part that I pulled up in my search terms was out of stock, with the in-stock date continually slipping later and later. I was looking at some 15kuF caps that showed October dates in July, and now they're showing 2021.
When I do hit upon a stock of what I want, I usually buy at the 10 piece threshold even if I need only 2 or 6 or whatever. The first major price break occurs at 10 pieces, and for some parts I've found that I'd actually save money buying 10 pieces than the 6 I would have bought anyway. And if I have 4 left, I'll probably use them in something else, eventually. Practically every amp I've seen uses 47uF, 470uF, 4700uF, etc. A little extra stock won't hurt and will probably move a project along faster.
But Mouser makes up for it by having a much larger stock of what we might call "audiophile caps". Plus their search is a lot better to use. Digikey comes in 2nd as far as availability, but in their search I can get two different results on an identical search simply by entering my list of terms in reverse. I've wasted far too many hours fighting that.
Newark apparently hates audio enthusiasts, because I can't recall ever seeing Muse FG or KZ there. In fact I don't recall ever seeing anything that might come close to audio there, including the larger KG caps you might want in a regulation circuit.
Regardless of this, I had to buy from all three of them just to get one project going because none of them had stock of my complete list.
Thats wild - most people I've read do that the other way around, they'd replace ES with Cerafine. I'm not naysaying you, because your experience is valid to your own case. In you experience would you consider the ES to be the top of the food chain as far as Nichicon goes?
Those are the only two electrolytics I've compared in the signal path. And the only other Nichicon I've used is FG but in a low-power PS. So not enough experience to say.
Just +/-18v, and I only needed 2,200uf caps. For recapping Audiolab amps that use +/-44v I've used Mundorf Mlytic caps for the power supplies, of 10,000 and 15,000uF, and I'm very happy with those (though my only comparison is with the original old Elna caps).
Thats for the power stage, but even the signal side of my amp has c.80v at certain test points, so some of the caps - especially the ones in the feedback circuit - have serious DCV values but relatively low capacitance. I saw a polar in there that's 47uF @ 100v. I have no idea what I'd put there.
Hey Tony, I appreciate you finding that article for me! I started reading it and saw the references to Douglas Self, I was thinking "why does that name sound so familiar?" Then it hit me - I just bought an electronics library in an estate sale and I have one of the most recent versions of "Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook" by Douglas Self. Hardcover too. It would probably be a good idea for me to read that soon, but I have to get better at the basics first.
Hmm, yes, that's an amp! You can get polyester caps in values like that, but they're physically very large (and relatively expensive). I had a couple of 47uF electrolytics in my pre-amp signal path, and I got some 63v polyester caps. It was still tricky fitting them in, though.
I picked KG for the big filters and FG for everything else in the power circuit, with the exception of a single cap that was only available in KZ. There were a few low voltage caps that I couldn't find in FG or above, so I bought Silmic and Cerafine for them. They're just tuner stage so nothing that would really show a sonic difference, but they looked cheap, if that makes sense. Just a no-name brand that resembled Nichicon at a glance but the name on the wrap actually said "Nichon".
A few 5W wire wound resistors to replace metal oxide ones I saw in hot spots on the main board rounded out the order.
As usual, no one had everything I needed. I had to go to Mouser for a few caps, but I don't mind dealing with them.
Thanks to you guys for the help, especially Tony.
A few 5W wire wound resistors to replace metal oxide ones I saw in hot spots on the main board rounded out the order.
As usual, no one had everything I needed. I had to go to Mouser for a few caps, but I don't mind dealing with them.
Thanks to you guys for the help, especially Tony.
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