Greetings.
I don't know if this fits this section of the forum. I apologize if it doesn't belong here. I asked this question on Strat Talk forum, and nobody would "touch it".
It concerns the volume controls of an electric guitar. For years, I have seen high value pots for sale, used for electric guitars, that claim to give higher output. The standard volume pot on an electric guitar is 500kOhm. The pots advertised were, for a long time 1Meg. Then even a 2 Meg pot was/is advertised for increasing output. Torres Engineering, an amp and guitar kit seller/amp builder/modifier has these pots in their "catalog" at present. They claim that they "were the first" to offer these.......their idea. My question is could a 1 or 2 Meg pot NOTICEABLY increase the output signal of an electric guitar ? I assume that Torres has some theoretical basis for offering this modification, but I would like to get some opinions before I try this. I have a bass that has weakish pickups, that I thought might benefit from such an easy and cheap mod, IF it actually works. I suppose the higher value pots are supposed to allow less "leakage" of signal to ground ???
Please, let me know if anybody has tried this in any application, or who knows in a theoretical way, how this modification would turn out. All comments and opinions are welcome, and appreciated. I can't get over the fact that a guitar forum had no input, about my output ! tonequester.
I don't know if this fits this section of the forum. I apologize if it doesn't belong here. I asked this question on Strat Talk forum, and nobody would "touch it".
It concerns the volume controls of an electric guitar. For years, I have seen high value pots for sale, used for electric guitars, that claim to give higher output. The standard volume pot on an electric guitar is 500kOhm. The pots advertised were, for a long time 1Meg. Then even a 2 Meg pot was/is advertised for increasing output. Torres Engineering, an amp and guitar kit seller/amp builder/modifier has these pots in their "catalog" at present. They claim that they "were the first" to offer these.......their idea. My question is could a 1 or 2 Meg pot NOTICEABLY increase the output signal of an electric guitar ? I assume that Torres has some theoretical basis for offering this modification, but I would like to get some opinions before I try this. I have a bass that has weakish pickups, that I thought might benefit from such an easy and cheap mod, IF it actually works. I suppose the higher value pots are supposed to allow less "leakage" of signal to ground ???
Please, let me know if anybody has tried this in any application, or who knows in a theoretical way, how this modification would turn out. All comments and opinions are welcome, and appreciated. I can't get over the fact that a guitar forum had no input, about my output ! tonequester.
2M is too high. It would only be higher output if the pickup coil impedance was 1M or more, very unlikely (see https://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys406/Lab_Handouts/Electric_Guitar_Pickup_Measurements.pdf)
The amplifier is unlikely to have more than 1M input resistance, so making the volume control too high value will cause it to be loaded.
Looking at the pickup measurements above, going from 220K up to 1M is going to affect the tone, becoming brighter
The amplifier is unlikely to have more than 1M input resistance, so making the volume control too high value will cause it to be loaded.
Looking at the pickup measurements above, going from 220K up to 1M is going to affect the tone, becoming brighter
Greetings davidsrsb.
Thanks for the reply. Years ago(80's) I did some business with Torres. Some info/mods turned out fine, but others were not worth a darned. I figured 2 Meg was overkill, to say the least, but I didn't know if perhaps a 1 Meg pot might provide a little boost. It sounds like there is more of a tonal effect(brighter) than an actual "boost". The 1 Meg pot from Torres is nothing special,and even with him doubling the price, it's not expensive, but I didn't want to start cutting wires and soldering until I got an opinion of too. After years of repairing and modding, I am finally talking a course on theory, but I have just begun. The forum really helps, especially with guys like you who spend your time to help "stragglers" like me. I want to thank you for providing the link. I just looked it over at a glance before I made this reply, but I already know it is an excellent article,and worth printing off and saving.
Thanks again for your help and the link. I hope all goes well for you in KUALA LUMPUR ! I am getting help from all over the world here, and I love every time I make contact. I hope that someday I can help someone out here as well. God Speed....tonequester.
Thanks for the reply. Years ago(80's) I did some business with Torres. Some info/mods turned out fine, but others were not worth a darned. I figured 2 Meg was overkill, to say the least, but I didn't know if perhaps a 1 Meg pot might provide a little boost. It sounds like there is more of a tonal effect(brighter) than an actual "boost". The 1 Meg pot from Torres is nothing special,and even with him doubling the price, it's not expensive, but I didn't want to start cutting wires and soldering until I got an opinion of too. After years of repairing and modding, I am finally talking a course on theory, but I have just begun. The forum really helps, especially with guys like you who spend your time to help "stragglers" like me. I want to thank you for providing the link. I just looked it over at a glance before I made this reply, but I already know it is an excellent article,and worth printing off and saving.
Thanks again for your help and the link. I hope all goes well for you in KUALA LUMPUR ! I am getting help from all over the world here, and I love every time I make contact. I hope that someday I can help someone out here as well. God Speed....tonequester.
Greetings sreten. Thanks for the quick and to the point reply. It is also in agreement with dasvidsrsb. I had a feeling that this cheap mod was so much crap, but without much of a theoretical background, I just often don't know for sure. I really appreciate the help given me on this forum, and when I have my C.E.T. maybe I'll be able to return the favor to someone here.
Thanks again, Best Regards.....tonequester.
Thanks again, Best Regards.....tonequester.
Greetings esgigt.
Thanks for your reply and the added enlightenment about higher resistance inducing more noise. I knew this to be a problem with some tube amps, and that carbon comp resistors are noisier than carbon film. I hadn't made the connection with guitars/pots though. It seems like I learn something every time someone posts a reply here. I really appreciate it esgigt. I'm happy to "meet" all of you guys here, and can't thank you enough. Posting here has substantially reduced my time spent "Googling" for answers ! Best Regards......tonequester.
Thanks for your reply and the added enlightenment about higher resistance inducing more noise. I knew this to be a problem with some tube amps, and that carbon comp resistors are noisier than carbon film. I hadn't made the connection with guitars/pots though. It seems like I learn something every time someone posts a reply here. I really appreciate it esgigt. I'm happy to "meet" all of you guys here, and can't thank you enough. Posting here has substantially reduced my time spent "Googling" for answers ! Best Regards......tonequester.
Greetings davidsrsb.
Thanks for the extra info on the dubiousness of the high value pot mods. I did some correspondence with Dan Torres back in the early 80's. He helped me do some decent guitar and amp mods, and gave hand written instructions that were pretty much "idiot proof", BUT....He also helped me completely ruin a 1960 Fender Princeton, with tremelo(not reverb), and white knobs. He talked me into "hot rodding" it, and the power transformer went up in smoke, along with only God knows what else. The eyelet board actually charred before I could grab my extinguisher. The worst thing was that the Princeton turned out to be a "rare bird", now worth a mint. Mine was in showroom condition, and I gave $50.00 for it cause it only buzzed. In a few minutes after getting it home, I found the chassis ground intermittent. After I re-flowed that, the amp played like new. This was about 1982, and the amp wasn't vintage then. The vintage "craze" hadn't even really started yet. After the fire and smoke, I just scrapped the amp. I sure wish I would have known the future of those old Fenders back then. I had even saved the original parts that I removed to do his high gain mod. Not that long ago, I saw one on ebay, and the bidding was over $3000.00. I should have known that Torres would offer a $10.00 mod that wasn't just useless, but that would have negative effects as well.
I appreciate all of your insight and time. Best regards....tonequester.
Thanks for the extra info on the dubiousness of the high value pot mods. I did some correspondence with Dan Torres back in the early 80's. He helped me do some decent guitar and amp mods, and gave hand written instructions that were pretty much "idiot proof", BUT....He also helped me completely ruin a 1960 Fender Princeton, with tremelo(not reverb), and white knobs. He talked me into "hot rodding" it, and the power transformer went up in smoke, along with only God knows what else. The eyelet board actually charred before I could grab my extinguisher. The worst thing was that the Princeton turned out to be a "rare bird", now worth a mint. Mine was in showroom condition, and I gave $50.00 for it cause it only buzzed. In a few minutes after getting it home, I found the chassis ground intermittent. After I re-flowed that, the amp played like new. This was about 1982, and the amp wasn't vintage then. The vintage "craze" hadn't even really started yet. After the fire and smoke, I just scrapped the amp. I sure wish I would have known the future of those old Fenders back then. I had even saved the original parts that I removed to do his high gain mod. Not that long ago, I saw one on ebay, and the bidding was over $3000.00. I should have known that Torres would offer a $10.00 mod that wasn't just useless, but that would have negative effects as well.
I appreciate all of your insight and time. Best regards....tonequester.
The fact is that the pick up is a simple generator.
It is capable of a combination of voltage and current.
If you were to wind a pickup with fewer turns (keeping the magnet structure, power and magnetic circuit the same) you would have lower voltage output, higher current output and lower output Z (impedance). Higher turns = more voltage, less current and higher output Z.
Less loading = higher voltage, less current. Less loading = higher Z pots (for the most part).
With guitars, what is best for things like connecting studio equipment or designing electronics is *not* always what sounds best. It may be, it may not be. Guitar pickups are not intended (usually ) to provide a flat frequency response.
There was a guitar pickup designed for that: the Les Paul Recording. It was wound for ~600 ohms, it had very low voltage output.
The short answers to the issues you already have.
The longer answer revolves around intangibles in your guitar, your sound and your rig, as well as what you can do to modify or adjust. For example you could possible adjust the input of your tube amp (or solid state) for a higher Z and so match the output Z of the higher Z pot better... but then as noted, high Z lines can be problematic. But the guitar cable already is high Z and already is in reality somewhat noisy and problematic. And then playing your guitar elsewhere on another amp may not be so good.
Thus, some pickups and some guitars, some mods put a preamp, usually an FET front ended active preamp in the guitar. The first of these was probably the Alembic designed Stratoblaster (it's online somewhere). So, you could go for something like that too.
Sounds like you just want to drive the front end of your guitar amp harder?
That's the thing, what do you want to get, and how do you want to get it??
_-_-bear
PS. if you don't know what ur doing electronically, it is easy to make a simple mistake and fry anything - that's why there are people who specialize in this and do mods and repairs for a living. The mod instructions may or may not have been good, or correct. Fwiw.
It is capable of a combination of voltage and current.
If you were to wind a pickup with fewer turns (keeping the magnet structure, power and magnetic circuit the same) you would have lower voltage output, higher current output and lower output Z (impedance). Higher turns = more voltage, less current and higher output Z.
Less loading = higher voltage, less current. Less loading = higher Z pots (for the most part).
With guitars, what is best for things like connecting studio equipment or designing electronics is *not* always what sounds best. It may be, it may not be. Guitar pickups are not intended (usually ) to provide a flat frequency response.
There was a guitar pickup designed for that: the Les Paul Recording. It was wound for ~600 ohms, it had very low voltage output.
The short answers to the issues you already have.
The longer answer revolves around intangibles in your guitar, your sound and your rig, as well as what you can do to modify or adjust. For example you could possible adjust the input of your tube amp (or solid state) for a higher Z and so match the output Z of the higher Z pot better... but then as noted, high Z lines can be problematic. But the guitar cable already is high Z and already is in reality somewhat noisy and problematic. And then playing your guitar elsewhere on another amp may not be so good.
Thus, some pickups and some guitars, some mods put a preamp, usually an FET front ended active preamp in the guitar. The first of these was probably the Alembic designed Stratoblaster (it's online somewhere). So, you could go for something like that too.
Sounds like you just want to drive the front end of your guitar amp harder?
That's the thing, what do you want to get, and how do you want to get it??
_-_-bear
PS. if you don't know what ur doing electronically, it is easy to make a simple mistake and fry anything - that's why there are people who specialize in this and do mods and repairs for a living. The mod instructions may or may not have been good, or correct. Fwiw.
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Common sense AND technical...can be a good combo !
Greetings bear.
Thanks for the very informative reply. Actually, I am just hooked on experimentation with all things pertaining to guitar tone. If I had to pick just one direction I could go, I'd be concentrating on output tube distortion. I realize that the blues and blues based rock I love(Cream,Mountain,Stevie Ray Vaughn) involves many factors(pre-amp distortion,phase inverter distortion if used, speaker distortion, effects used,etc.), I have become convinced that the single most important characteristic concerning this type of tone, comes from over driven output tubes. I find that while I don't want too much pre-amp distortion(too much "FUZZ"), I do want a hot enough signal from the guitar, that I don't have to rely too much on cranking up a gain control to get those EL84's(my personal fav) wailin'. However, as I get older, I find that other music, other tones, have become entertaining as well. I also love the "hands on" of making mods to guitar and amps. It's gotten to the place where I enjoy working on them, as much as I enjoy playing.
Your reply, and explanation, would be great for all levels of expertise other than, perhaps,an engineer. I'm just now studying, in a formal way, electronics theory, after years of experimentation, and following someone else's instructions. I'm getting prepared to take the C.E.T. The advice I have already received on this forum, has been every bit the learning experience, as the course is. Experience can't be beat ! I still can't get over the fact that one can get a C.E.T. without ever having touched a soldering iron ! I'm hoping to get to where I can make a little supplementation to my Social Security, by doing what I have loved doing for over 30 years, for free. If I can get theoretical knowledge inline with my ability at "hands on", I'll have it made. Guys like you make it much easier. Thanks so much, for replying so understandably, without "going over my head", or "hitting me on it" ! Best Regards....tonequester.
Greetings bear.
Thanks for the very informative reply. Actually, I am just hooked on experimentation with all things pertaining to guitar tone. If I had to pick just one direction I could go, I'd be concentrating on output tube distortion. I realize that the blues and blues based rock I love(Cream,Mountain,Stevie Ray Vaughn) involves many factors(pre-amp distortion,phase inverter distortion if used, speaker distortion, effects used,etc.), I have become convinced that the single most important characteristic concerning this type of tone, comes from over driven output tubes. I find that while I don't want too much pre-amp distortion(too much "FUZZ"), I do want a hot enough signal from the guitar, that I don't have to rely too much on cranking up a gain control to get those EL84's(my personal fav) wailin'. However, as I get older, I find that other music, other tones, have become entertaining as well. I also love the "hands on" of making mods to guitar and amps. It's gotten to the place where I enjoy working on them, as much as I enjoy playing.
Your reply, and explanation, would be great for all levels of expertise other than, perhaps,an engineer. I'm just now studying, in a formal way, electronics theory, after years of experimentation, and following someone else's instructions. I'm getting prepared to take the C.E.T. The advice I have already received on this forum, has been every bit the learning experience, as the course is. Experience can't be beat ! I still can't get over the fact that one can get a C.E.T. without ever having touched a soldering iron ! I'm hoping to get to where I can make a little supplementation to my Social Security, by doing what I have loved doing for over 30 years, for free. If I can get theoretical knowledge inline with my ability at "hands on", I'll have it made. Guys like you make it much easier. Thanks so much, for replying so understandably, without "going over my head", or "hitting me on it" ! Best Regards....tonequester.
Hi,
It is an absolute doddle to knock up a clean overdrive pedal.
However you don't seem to understand that input "fuzz"
has nothing to do with gain settings, its all about level.
Overdrive pedals and high output pickups are about
overdriving the input stage, and have nothing to do
with overdriving the output stage.
Your logic is very flawed for most amplifiers.
rgds, sreten.
It is an absolute doddle to knock up a clean overdrive pedal.
However you don't seem to understand that input "fuzz"
has nothing to do with gain settings, its all about level.
Overdrive pedals and high output pickups are about
overdriving the input stage, and have nothing to do
with overdriving the output stage.
Your logic is very flawed for most amplifiers.
rgds, sreten.
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Greetings sreten.
I guess I did not make myself very clear about "fuzz", pre-amp distortion, and gain. I agree with you completely that high output from guitar or a boost pedal will cause distortion in the pre-amp stage. It can't "skip" over the pre-amp and over drive the output stage. I just meant to say that I have found with the equipment that I have used, I get better results with a signal input that is not so weak, that one has to crank up a gain control to the max. I liken it to the first amps that I had the pleasure to use. They had no gain control, and my first guitars, had what we call today "vintage" pickups, which were typically weaker than most have today. With my very first set-up, my "vintage" Strat plugged straight into a "vintage" Fender Princeton, it was hard to get an over driven tone unless you cranked the volume of the amp to 10. Now that involves gain, but the gain is set, as I understand gain. I tried various distortion pedals, but they all were too fuzzy, too solid state sounding to me. I finally built a clean boost pedal that gave a max boost of about 20db. Not having much electronic theory(still don't), I started right in cranking that boost pedal up. When I did that, I got the same fuzzy distortion. Only when I finally tried playing with the pedal set at around 2or3, did my amp start sounding sweetly over driven without having to max the volume.
So, I guess that I have found for me, I like to have a hotter signal than "vintage" single coils typically had, but no where near what high output pickups have today. I realize that "high output" is relative, and it's even hard for me(again not much theory) to know for sure if a pickup is hot or not, unless I play it with a familiar amp. Right now, my "winter project guitar" has 3 different pickups installed :neck-single coil-4.5kOhms...mid-single coil-6.2kOhms...bridge-humbucker-12.3kOhms( yea, I know D.C. resistance is not all there is) I truly can't tell their output strength apart. I'm talking positions 1,3,and 5 on a 5-way selector switch. Not combinations. The difference in decibels between the three, I would bet, wouldn't be MORE than 3. The one thing that I know for sure, is the difference between the sound of a distorting pre-amp, and a distorting output stage, with all other factors working properly. Definitely, other factors DO come into play.
One example is that I have a small tube amp that never did over drive well. It's speaker was punctured during transport. I decided to patch the hole which was the size of a golf ball. I used layers of thin/cheap paper towels, and layers of thick/expensive paper towels, all thoroughly saturated with urethane wood glue. Now, that amp sounds pretty darn close to a cranked up, no gain control, no master, Fender pushed hard enough to be a good blues amp. It ain't no Fender, and it ain't no overdrive. I just got lucky, patching that speaker. If I had gotten it re-coned, it would still be the dull OLD Gibson that it is.
I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clear in the first place. Give me a break. I'm old, and I talk mostly to myself, and even worse, I don't listen ! For me, a gain control just isn't necessary, and I DO get all of the "crunch", singing sustain, and harmonic content that i want, all "on demand". I don't mean to come off like you can bend theory, or break it. However, to play the blues like I live 'em, I don't need theory all that much. Now, to get better at fixin' and moddin', theory is a real good thing. It's why I'm studying it formally, and it's one reason I'm here, but until I've "caught up" with many of "yous guys", I'll probably make stupid statements, and ask dumb questions. Please, don't take me too serious....I don't !
Thanks again for all replies, advice, and yes.....critique ! tonequester. P.S. Apologies for the "jacked up" paragraphs.....lousy keyboard.
I guess I did not make myself very clear about "fuzz", pre-amp distortion, and gain. I agree with you completely that high output from guitar or a boost pedal will cause distortion in the pre-amp stage. It can't "skip" over the pre-amp and over drive the output stage. I just meant to say that I have found with the equipment that I have used, I get better results with a signal input that is not so weak, that one has to crank up a gain control to the max. I liken it to the first amps that I had the pleasure to use. They had no gain control, and my first guitars, had what we call today "vintage" pickups, which were typically weaker than most have today. With my very first set-up, my "vintage" Strat plugged straight into a "vintage" Fender Princeton, it was hard to get an over driven tone unless you cranked the volume of the amp to 10. Now that involves gain, but the gain is set, as I understand gain. I tried various distortion pedals, but they all were too fuzzy, too solid state sounding to me. I finally built a clean boost pedal that gave a max boost of about 20db. Not having much electronic theory(still don't), I started right in cranking that boost pedal up. When I did that, I got the same fuzzy distortion. Only when I finally tried playing with the pedal set at around 2or3, did my amp start sounding sweetly over driven without having to max the volume.
So, I guess that I have found for me, I like to have a hotter signal than "vintage" single coils typically had, but no where near what high output pickups have today. I realize that "high output" is relative, and it's even hard for me(again not much theory) to know for sure if a pickup is hot or not, unless I play it with a familiar amp. Right now, my "winter project guitar" has 3 different pickups installed :neck-single coil-4.5kOhms...mid-single coil-6.2kOhms...bridge-humbucker-12.3kOhms( yea, I know D.C. resistance is not all there is) I truly can't tell their output strength apart. I'm talking positions 1,3,and 5 on a 5-way selector switch. Not combinations. The difference in decibels between the three, I would bet, wouldn't be MORE than 3. The one thing that I know for sure, is the difference between the sound of a distorting pre-amp, and a distorting output stage, with all other factors working properly. Definitely, other factors DO come into play.
One example is that I have a small tube amp that never did over drive well. It's speaker was punctured during transport. I decided to patch the hole which was the size of a golf ball. I used layers of thin/cheap paper towels, and layers of thick/expensive paper towels, all thoroughly saturated with urethane wood glue. Now, that amp sounds pretty darn close to a cranked up, no gain control, no master, Fender pushed hard enough to be a good blues amp. It ain't no Fender, and it ain't no overdrive. I just got lucky, patching that speaker. If I had gotten it re-coned, it would still be the dull OLD Gibson that it is.
I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clear in the first place. Give me a break. I'm old, and I talk mostly to myself, and even worse, I don't listen ! For me, a gain control just isn't necessary, and I DO get all of the "crunch", singing sustain, and harmonic content that i want, all "on demand". I don't mean to come off like you can bend theory, or break it. However, to play the blues like I live 'em, I don't need theory all that much. Now, to get better at fixin' and moddin', theory is a real good thing. It's why I'm studying it formally, and it's one reason I'm here, but until I've "caught up" with many of "yous guys", I'll probably make stupid statements, and ask dumb questions. Please, don't take me too serious....I don't !
Thanks again for all replies, advice, and yes.....critique ! tonequester. P.S. Apologies for the "jacked up" paragraphs.....lousy keyboard.
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typically the neck pick up sounds louder than the bridge, so with equal PU heights, IF they sound the same loudness, that's a good trick.
Tone? The Holy Grail for guitar.
As far as learning electronics, get yourself a used copy of The Art Of Electronics and you can buy or download Langford Smith's Radiotron Designers Handbook. Then spend a year reading John Broskie's site.
This will get you out of the kiddie pool and into the deeper waters.
Right now I am playing with a Klon Centaur clone, plopping it into the enclosure. I'm after Jeff Beck's sound myself. Good luck with that, I say. But what the heck, I can't *play* like him, but there are aspects to what he does on-the-fly with tone that I am after...
_-_-
Tone? The Holy Grail for guitar.
As far as learning electronics, get yourself a used copy of The Art Of Electronics and you can buy or download Langford Smith's Radiotron Designers Handbook. Then spend a year reading John Broskie's site.
This will get you out of the kiddie pool and into the deeper waters.
Right now I am playing with a Klon Centaur clone, plopping it into the enclosure. I'm after Jeff Beck's sound myself. Good luck with that, I say. But what the heck, I can't *play* like him, but there are aspects to what he does on-the-fly with tone that I am after...
_-_-
private message link doesn't work ???
Greetings bear.
I got your message, but was not able to use the link provided to give you an answer. I appreciate your message, and understand. I'm participating on several forums, and have done so on several others past. I actually quit a forum in the beginning due to this. However, I have learned to reap the "good fruit" and leave the "chaff" behind. Forums reflect the diversity of life itself. I come looking for knowledge, and even sheer opinion. If I find something I'm not looking for, it just goes like "water off a ducks back". I really appreciate your input, which increases my output ! Now, I'm going to check out just what www.bearlabs.com is all about ! I hope I can get there from here. Just as I make no claim to expertise concerning D.I.Y.Audio, I make no claim to "computing" talent. Just navigating a forum, is sometimes a challenge for me. I keep at it because it's the only way I know how to learn. Life may knock me down, but so far, I keep getting back up. Again, thanks for your help. Apologies, if I have miss used, or abused this forum thus. Forgive me, for I know not what I do. Sincerely, tonequester.
Greetings bear.
I got your message, but was not able to use the link provided to give you an answer. I appreciate your message, and understand. I'm participating on several forums, and have done so on several others past. I actually quit a forum in the beginning due to this. However, I have learned to reap the "good fruit" and leave the "chaff" behind. Forums reflect the diversity of life itself. I come looking for knowledge, and even sheer opinion. If I find something I'm not looking for, it just goes like "water off a ducks back". I really appreciate your input, which increases my output ! Now, I'm going to check out just what www.bearlabs.com is all about ! I hope I can get there from here. Just as I make no claim to expertise concerning D.I.Y.Audio, I make no claim to "computing" talent. Just navigating a forum, is sometimes a challenge for me. I keep at it because it's the only way I know how to learn. Life may knock me down, but so far, I keep getting back up. Again, thanks for your help. Apologies, if I have miss used, or abused this forum thus. Forgive me, for I know not what I do. Sincerely, tonequester.
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