I was asked by a friend to start looking into building him outdoors, PA speaker system for EDM and Techno music.
This require good bass extension. Most of the gigs, live bands or DJ, would be outdoors and there would be from 1000 to 5000 bass lovinnn teens/ young men.
I diy'd a few JBL Scoops (4530) copies and am familliar with building those. 4520's with their dual 15inchers would be too combersome/ heavy but i was thinking either modified 4530's or, similar design for 18inch pro subs.
Now, are these scoop styles a thing of the past, for PA (the low bass), and ease of transportability OR, should forget about those and think ''W'' bass bins???.
My friend is renting the equipment right now but wants to own a system, that can be augmented with the needs.
I was thinking about used or new Crown amps and active x-overs.
The scoops may only require a 3way settup but the ''W" bins would require 4 ways right?.
The scoops are easy to install close by for mutual coupling and, the front of the drivers would take care of upper bass.
I am leaning towards scoops but need the advise!.
Mids would probably be front loaded 12inch cone drivers.
This require good bass extension. Most of the gigs, live bands or DJ, would be outdoors and there would be from 1000 to 5000 bass lovinnn teens/ young men.
I diy'd a few JBL Scoops (4530) copies and am familliar with building those. 4520's with their dual 15inchers would be too combersome/ heavy but i was thinking either modified 4530's or, similar design for 18inch pro subs.
Now, are these scoop styles a thing of the past, for PA (the low bass), and ease of transportability OR, should forget about those and think ''W'' bass bins???.
My friend is renting the equipment right now but wants to own a system, that can be augmented with the needs.
I was thinking about used or new Crown amps and active x-overs.
The scoops may only require a 3way settup but the ''W" bins would require 4 ways right?.
The scoops are easy to install close by for mutual coupling and, the front of the drivers would take care of upper bass.
I am leaning towards scoops but need the advise!.
Mids would probably be front loaded 12inch cone drivers.
Yes... although it's still popular in some circles. The original scoop design is badly outclassed buy modern designs now, it was created when 250w drivers and amplifiers were considered big but now 2500w amps and drivers capable of absorbing that are common. A modern double 18 box with the same footprint as a single driver scoop will go much lower and get much louder, and there are designs like the 18" tapped horn that will replace a pair of dual 18" reflex subs.
What equipment is he renting? An outdoor rave like event for up to 5k will require a pretty large system... way beyond what I would consider owning(I'm a small system supplier), so it would be interesting to know what the baseline is.. what he is prepared to settle for.
Welcome, you are bound for a deeeeep rabbit hole......
15" scoop won't cut it..... a cab of that size, might as well put 18" woofers inside. Last night I listened outdoors to two systems, one with eminence kappa 15 lf loaded scoops, the other had 18" hog scoops. The 15 somehow kept up, but wouldn't stand a chance at WAR.
18" scoops are still hugely popular.
I have to disagree with the previous comment about scoops vs double 18". It is only partly true, since the double 18" cobsumes more amplifier power than a scoop. But conversely, double reflex offers higher power density.
The latest cutting edge of subwoofer development (paraflex designs) can be found on this very forum here:
Compound loading 6th order quarterwave "Super Planar" horns and pipes concepts/builds
And in the quarterwave society fb group.
Another very good resource with plans and transducer tests and comparisons:
Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements
Speakerplans.com has free plans, amongst them the 18" superscoop. The discussion forum is also worth a look......
Designs/keywords:
Superscoop
Hogscoop
Keystone Horn
ROAR
Paraflex
Just to mention a few.....
15" scoop won't cut it..... a cab of that size, might as well put 18" woofers inside. Last night I listened outdoors to two systems, one with eminence kappa 15 lf loaded scoops, the other had 18" hog scoops. The 15 somehow kept up, but wouldn't stand a chance at WAR.
18" scoops are still hugely popular.
I have to disagree with the previous comment about scoops vs double 18". It is only partly true, since the double 18" cobsumes more amplifier power than a scoop. But conversely, double reflex offers higher power density.
The latest cutting edge of subwoofer development (paraflex designs) can be found on this very forum here:
Compound loading 6th order quarterwave "Super Planar" horns and pipes concepts/builds
And in the quarterwave society fb group.
Another very good resource with plans and transducer tests and comparisons:
Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements
Speakerplans.com has free plans, amongst them the 18" superscoop. The discussion forum is also worth a look......
Designs/keywords:
Superscoop
Hogscoop
Keystone Horn
ROAR
Paraflex
Just to mention a few.....
Have to agree with conanski, the scope of 1000-5000 people is massive......
If you have to ask, it implies you are not up for the task....
Outlay will be substantial. You need 8-16 boxes for sure, depending on what kind of design you settle on, just the drivers will cost your friend 5000-10000$, add to that LUMBER (crazy prices right now), and amplifiers 5000-20000 (used vs. New?) Power distribution, cables connectors, paint, hardware......
And then you need tops, amps and processing for tops
You're easily looking at 20k$ just to diy the subs (add labor). 30-40k$ for the complete system, preferably some big, second hand touring grade midtops, think EAW, Meyer Sound, JBL (HLA series particularly), maybe EV.
What about storage? Maintenance? Safe operation? -blown transducers are expensive.
But sure, if it is your and your friend's idea of a fun hobby, why not! As an investment, only for your own events, risky I would say without knowing the particulars of your situation.....
If you have to ask, it implies you are not up for the task....
Outlay will be substantial. You need 8-16 boxes for sure, depending on what kind of design you settle on, just the drivers will cost your friend 5000-10000$, add to that LUMBER (crazy prices right now), and amplifiers 5000-20000 (used vs. New?) Power distribution, cables connectors, paint, hardware......
And then you need tops, amps and processing for tops
You're easily looking at 20k$ just to diy the subs (add labor). 30-40k$ for the complete system, preferably some big, second hand touring grade midtops, think EAW, Meyer Sound, JBL (HLA series particularly), maybe EV.
What about storage? Maintenance? Safe operation? -blown transducers are expensive.
But sure, if it is your and your friend's idea of a fun hobby, why not! As an investment, only for your own events, risky I would say without knowing the particulars of your situation.....
At 15 watts per head, you would need 75kW, even with balanced program material. For “ghetto bass” levels you would double the sub, putting you in the 125kW range. The biggest thing I would try to muster together is a 16 sub rig, and even then it would be two trips in the truck and trailer to move it, and require hired help for setup. It did take *20 years* to build all the gear (it started with 8 lab horns, when they were first developed), with an overall outlay somewhere in the $50k range. So those cost estimates are pretty spot on - there is a lot of Hidden expense besides besides speakers and amps. When I think what I have in cables alone…. Jeezus, I could go into the copper business. Trickled in over 20 years you don’t really feel it - but it’s there. When I get all the *amplifiers* built, I’ll have a little over 50kW on tap for the FOH, plus spares, which would be good for about 2000 audience - more only if “sane volumes” were all that is required. It still needs work before it can be *fully* deployed, but it’s still probably 2 years out realistically before I can quit my day job. Most gigs will use 1/4 to 1/2 of the rig, or even my “mini” rig with 4 TH18 and 2x12/2” tops. The last time I was regularly gigging the mini rig was all I was using - I just didn’t have time or energy to go chasing business for anything larger. In short, it is a LOT of work DIYing, and a 5000 audience rig is a lot. Especially for rave levels. Most anyone considering doing this would not consider DIY for anything besides the subs, but my original goal was to DIY everything south of the driverack. I’m still running mostly used commercial power amps. Iron horse amps are already few and far between, and soon the only choice will be to DIY them unless you use lightweight disposables (continuous money drain, requiring a continuous income stream).
For commercial gain, all of this would be highly discouraged. Modern brand name TOURING equipment will open doors that a DIY rig cannot, no matter how good it sounds. Unless you’ve been in the business 20 years and already made a name for yourself. If your hobby is building very big amplifiers and speakers, and it’s something you were going to do anyway, it’s better than spending it on booze, drugs, and women.
Storage? That’s another problem. You live in an apartment or place with an HOA, forget it unless you’re prepared to shell out every month for space. Working space as well as secure storage. I’m cramped in 1400 square feet of shop space in a dedicated building between storage, inventory, and work space. But that’s a facility that I would have *anyway*, but not everybody does.
For commercial gain, all of this would be highly discouraged. Modern brand name TOURING equipment will open doors that a DIY rig cannot, no matter how good it sounds. Unless you’ve been in the business 20 years and already made a name for yourself. If your hobby is building very big amplifiers and speakers, and it’s something you were going to do anyway, it’s better than spending it on booze, drugs, and women.
Storage? That’s another problem. You live in an apartment or place with an HOA, forget it unless you’re prepared to shell out every month for space. Working space as well as secure storage. I’m cramped in 1400 square feet of shop space in a dedicated building between storage, inventory, and work space. But that’s a facility that I would have *anyway*, but not everybody does.
Most scoops and W-bins do not extend low enough for that kind of music. The few that go low enough are vastly outclassed by modern horn-hybrid or even simple vented subs with modern drivers. Both mentioned JBL scoops reach barely 50Hz, they are simply too short. Yes, big stacks give you a bit more extension but it's by far not what you're expecting.
Forget about active x-overs, you need a fitting lowcut to not kill the drivers even before reaching half the power because BL horns and ported subs don't limit the excursion below the fb. And you need a limiter. DSPs are cheap, can deliver on nearfill and delay line and you are very flexible. If you go instead of a DSP to a plain active xo, you're wasting ~50% of the possible performance and still need equalizing. The downside of a DSP is, you need someone who can build you a setup but on the other hand you need that on an active setup too.
No.
The scoops got a horrible upper bass because of the phase problem because of the different distance the direct radiated sound and the horn radiated sound take - and you can't fix that with any electronics.
Before you build anything above the bass you need to know what spl you need and which dispersion pattern you need. And for 5000 pax you need to fly your clustered tops or you need delay line speakers (flown too). So look at what truss and lifts etc you have to buy which can take your speakers safely. Don't forget the wind load either or you will make it to the next news headlines. Then check if you can afford it to build, to transport and to store it and if you have enough time and ppl to set it up and take it down. Most ppl aren't that party happy anymore once they realize it's a lot of work and not just celebrating and drinking.
I'm afraid you do not have the needed knowledge to do all that on your own.
How often will it be used? 5 times a year? My advice is to rent the PA system and let them set it up. That's a LOT cheaper than building stuff and then realizing it can't do what you need and lose tons of money by selling it used. After having a bit experience with the rented PA you get an idea what you really need and what's missing (or too much).
you need to work out:
Maximum spend (this will always be expensive due to the wood required alone)
How your transporting the system - this dictates the size of each sub
Target audience area and SPL
How is power provided for the system?
At one end is a stack of powerful amps and double 18" BR cabs, this will be expensive but consume the minimum truck space and the other end are front loaded horns which will be physically larger but more efficient and required fewer for the same SPL. Between the two are things like 6th order BP cabs and tapped horns. As an example of how larger FLH will be:
Hennessey Sound Design - SUB WOOFERS
Maximum spend (this will always be expensive due to the wood required alone)
How your transporting the system - this dictates the size of each sub
Target audience area and SPL
How is power provided for the system?
At one end is a stack of powerful amps and double 18" BR cabs, this will be expensive but consume the minimum truck space and the other end are front loaded horns which will be physically larger but more efficient and required fewer for the same SPL. Between the two are things like 6th order BP cabs and tapped horns. As an example of how larger FLH will be:
Hennessey Sound Design - SUB WOOFERS
I would try to visit a beach rave or a known rock band concert set up just for counting gear.
I attended the concert in Porto years ago and it was impressive.
COLDPLAY LIVE — HOW IT'S DONE — AudioTechnology
Or take the Wall of sound approach
Wall of Sound (Grateful Dead - Wikipedia)
I attended the concert in Porto years ago and it was impressive.
COLDPLAY LIVE — HOW IT'S DONE — AudioTechnology
Or take the Wall of sound approach
Wall of Sound (Grateful Dead - Wikipedia)
You're starting to look more like a troll here. You come in and ask a question, but instead of providing additional information when asked you come back with smartass comments. If you're not willing to seriously participate in your own thread you won't get much help.
Well, you said you get it but you obviously do not. Your budget doesn't match your demands, you want a Ferrari for the budget of a Fiat 500. There's no way around to either reduce the demands or increase the budget.
5k will get you a PA for ~250 ppl outdoors, ~500 indoors, depending on the location, its geometry, wall etc in the back (outdoors), needed dispersion and the target spl and power you can get, maybe a bit more or less.
For that budget you'll get 2x 1,4"/2x10" or 1,4"/2x12" used tops or diy (NO, these cheap 1"/15" plastic buckets won't do it) and maybe 8x 18" diy subs and a dsp. You still need amping but how much that is strongly depends on how much power you can get and the tops and subs. For the subs it also strongly depends on the cluster type ("Straight Line"/"tooth gap" (Zahnlücke), mono/stereo stack, cardioid etc.), some of these need additional dsp channels and amp channels too, you dan't do ie cardioid or tooth gap with double subs. That means the sub and amp choice is depending on a lot of things too. Rigging also needed in some form.
If you want more, increase the budget. If you want to go bigger, rent something or get a bigger budget.
What did you plan to use for light, safety of ppl and equipment (rain, mud, storm, lightning, fire)? How much truck space and storage do you have at hand?
I got the point real quick, i was not expecting that it was such a huge install. The one thing that i didn't like is the way that SOME of you guys put me down. You don't even know me.
The friend, in question is a event promoter, i was just asking you guys advise, to see if i could deal with this, NOT to be told that i'm a troll and have no clue...
The friend, in question is a event promoter, i was just asking you guys advise, to see if i could deal with this, NOT to be told that i'm a troll and have no clue...
Okay, that was clearly a misunderstanding and you did not help to make it any clearer. But what I said was just plain honest, no malice or mean things, just the truth. You didn't like what was said before so I assumed it's because of the budget. You can't cheat physics. I'm really sorry I tried to help. My bad, won't happen again.
Im just curious what size system he was renting.
But yes its simple now with higher powered amplifiers and speakers.
Could just use straight forward reflex boxes. 1x18 or 2x18
The system could just be expanded over time.
With a decent straight forward design.
You would just simple buy the same drivers and build the same design
when you expand the system.
Having been to many outdoor or renegade type EDM parties
There is often 2 to 4 individual stages playing different Genres as well.
So even though a event might have 1 to 2 thousand people
Each stage or Area only needs enough SPL for 200 to 300 people
it doesn't take a large system. As people imagine
But yes its simple now with higher powered amplifiers and speakers.
Could just use straight forward reflex boxes. 1x18 or 2x18
The system could just be expanded over time.
With a decent straight forward design.
You would just simple buy the same drivers and build the same design
when you expand the system.
Having been to many outdoor or renegade type EDM parties
There is often 2 to 4 individual stages playing different Genres as well.
So even though a event might have 1 to 2 thousand people
Each stage or Area only needs enough SPL for 200 to 300 people
it doesn't take a large system. As people imagine
I’ve *got* a block of 8 labhorns. I’m not sure it’s quite up to a 5000 person rave. Concert in the park? Sure, but not enough to make an “underground” venue as loud as the inside of a Honda Accord with two 12’s powered with a kilowatt. That’s kind of what is expected. At point-blank range it will liquefy your insides, but get out 200 feet and it’s just “satisfying”. Four did just about blow the roof off a hotel ballroom, but that was only a. 250 person Prom.
Add the other 8 similarly-tuned cabs with B&C 18’s in them that I built later, THEN you might be getting somewhere. Then 30k watts to power them all, plus either line arrays, arrayed synergy cabs, BIG horn loaders, or whatever (and power). A couple of 12’s won’t cut it.
The 8 lab horns cost 5000 dollars. The other 8 cabs cost another 5000. You might get away with iNukes to power them - for about 6 months or a year, then have to replace them when they burn up - so you need real amps. Powered line array elements are gonna be 2 grand apiece for starters. You *could* build the mains too, but the advice you’ll get here is not to. I did but I’m stubborn, stupid or both.