Myself and my friend put on occasional gigs where we play classic trance stuff, from around 1996 to 2006. We do this in the back rooms of various bars around Manchester and we have always used rather budget active PA stuff. We've had various different systems over the years from HK audio, Alto, RCF etc.. all 15” or 18” reflex bins with tops, and all fully active.
It’s always done the job for our small events of up to around 100 people but it has lacked that club style 100 – 250hz kick which I think you only really get from horn loaded cabs.
We’d like to take the current global “no gig” situation downtime as an opportunity to make our own PA system, which will not only improve the sound but also give us a bit of branding, having our own system so to speak.
We’ve done a fair bit of research and we are still undecided on what route to go down. Currently in pole position is the idea to build a cubo setup, with cubo subs, kick, and then some custom mids and a compression horn above that. The main concern with that idea is that a cubo 12 set up might be a little small (not sure if it would be) and the 12 (and also the 15 really) doesn’t really seem to go that low. We don’t need to be playing in the 30hz band but we would like solid performance down to 40hz. Seems a bit daft to build a 3 way system that can’t play down to 40hz with authority. We do like the simplicity of the cubo build though, the wide range of driver options, and the looks.
We’ve also considered the tham 12/15 and Mth 30. Someone suggest the FTH12 tapped horn developed by the late Tony Wilks but I can’t find plans for that.
Any help or input from forum members would be very gratefully received.
We’ll need to buy the lot, wood, drivers and amps. Budget is flexible, not massive, but we also know we can’t build this for peanuts. Keeping the weight down is a priority as it’s only the two of us. Load in’s are fine, but load outs are a morale sapper!
We are handy with building stuff and are lucky to have a well-equipped workshop, but we don’t want to spend time and money building the wrong thing.
Many thanks.
It’s always done the job for our small events of up to around 100 people but it has lacked that club style 100 – 250hz kick which I think you only really get from horn loaded cabs.
We’d like to take the current global “no gig” situation downtime as an opportunity to make our own PA system, which will not only improve the sound but also give us a bit of branding, having our own system so to speak.
We’ve done a fair bit of research and we are still undecided on what route to go down. Currently in pole position is the idea to build a cubo setup, with cubo subs, kick, and then some custom mids and a compression horn above that. The main concern with that idea is that a cubo 12 set up might be a little small (not sure if it would be) and the 12 (and also the 15 really) doesn’t really seem to go that low. We don’t need to be playing in the 30hz band but we would like solid performance down to 40hz. Seems a bit daft to build a 3 way system that can’t play down to 40hz with authority. We do like the simplicity of the cubo build though, the wide range of driver options, and the looks.
We’ve also considered the tham 12/15 and Mth 30. Someone suggest the FTH12 tapped horn developed by the late Tony Wilks but I can’t find plans for that.
Any help or input from forum members would be very gratefully received.
We’ll need to buy the lot, wood, drivers and amps. Budget is flexible, not massive, but we also know we can’t build this for peanuts. Keeping the weight down is a priority as it’s only the two of us. Load in’s are fine, but load outs are a morale sapper!
We are handy with building stuff and are lucky to have a well-equipped workshop, but we don’t want to spend time and money building the wrong thing.
Many thanks.
Whats the maximum size and weight of the sub you can deal with? if you build wheel boards perhaps you can deal with a heavier/larger sub? (sub goes face down onto the wheel board for transport). Another option is to make cabs that rock back onto wheels. Falls apart a bit if you have to deal with stairs. You always have to trade off size, maximum output and bass extension when designing a sub, big amps and high excursion drivers can 'cheat' a little but it quickly becomes impractical.
Regarding your lack of kick its quite possible that you just need to apply some EQ to the equipment you already have been using. Decent kick is obtainable form reflex cabs, for a 100 person capacity room 4* decent 15"/18" reflex subs should be sufficient (but probably still some limiting in the most heavy parts). Here are some eq tips: https://forum.speakerplans.com/uploads/8883/Void_System_Tips_EQ.pdf
Regarding your lack of kick its quite possible that you just need to apply some EQ to the equipment you already have been using. Decent kick is obtainable form reflex cabs, for a 100 person capacity room 4* decent 15"/18" reflex subs should be sufficient (but probably still some limiting in the most heavy parts). Here are some eq tips: https://forum.speakerplans.com/uploads/8883/Void_System_Tips_EQ.pdf
I'd definitely stick with a 3-way system. Something like the new Faital Pro coaxials and as many reflex 15"s or 18"s you can be bothered to move would be a pretty good start.
There's no need to go for a 4-way system until you're on the scale of Nexo Alpha (look it up). When you've got a few 2x18" cabs a side, then it's time to start dividing the frequency ranges up further. Additional crossover points make life more difficult.
My biggest recommendation, though, would be to buy some measurement gear, and learn to use it. Easily the best audio-related purchase I've made was a Beyer MM1 and a Behringer UMC202HD interface.
Chris
There's no need to go for a 4-way system until you're on the scale of Nexo Alpha (look it up). When you've got a few 2x18" cabs a side, then it's time to start dividing the frequency ranges up further. Additional crossover points make life more difficult.
My biggest recommendation, though, would be to buy some measurement gear, and learn to use it. Easily the best audio-related purchase I've made was a Beyer MM1 and a Behringer UMC202HD interface.
Chris
There have been more than a few speaker shootout/comparisons that support this theory. At one of these sub shoots all boxes which included horns and reflex were EQ'd to produce the same measured response and guess what... they sounded the same.
Each box design has a characteristic response, horn subs in particular tend to have a rising response that peaks up towards the topend... right where the kick drum fundamental is, while reflex boxes are generally much flatter.. unless poorly designed. So it stands to reason people would gravitate towards horns for music genres that emphasize the kick, but that doesn't mean other designs can't do a good job with it, they just need a little response shaping.
Thanks for the replies guys.
One of the reasons for going passive and "modular" is to cut down on the weight of the active 15" or 18s if possible. They are about 30kg to 40kg each. So say no more than 25 kg per box?
I've tried eq-ing the systems we have used, but there are two issues. One is that I have zero skills when it comes to measurement and eq, and two, I think the active systems all have some sort of dynamic eq built in, so as I adjust it at the input side, they systems make different adjustments onboard, especially as the SPL levels are changed throughout the night. Certainly, I’ve never been able to get the “kicky” club sound I like. I’d like more separation between sub and kick than we have ever managed.
I have been reading up on the cubos, and a few people seem to suggest that if an approximate 30cm extension was added to the horn mouth, it would drop lower, possibly down from 50hz to around 42hz.
I have never actually seen anyone do this. Has it been done does anyone know? I have done a quick sketchup of the sort of idea I had in my head. 2 stacked cubos with a bolt on horn extension. Is that totally mad, or could it work?
One of the reasons for going passive and "modular" is to cut down on the weight of the active 15" or 18s if possible. They are about 30kg to 40kg each. So say no more than 25 kg per box?
I've tried eq-ing the systems we have used, but there are two issues. One is that I have zero skills when it comes to measurement and eq, and two, I think the active systems all have some sort of dynamic eq built in, so as I adjust it at the input side, they systems make different adjustments onboard, especially as the SPL levels are changed throughout the night. Certainly, I’ve never been able to get the “kicky” club sound I like. I’d like more separation between sub and kick than we have ever managed.
I have been reading up on the cubos, and a few people seem to suggest that if an approximate 30cm extension was added to the horn mouth, it would drop lower, possibly down from 50hz to around 42hz.
I have never actually seen anyone do this. Has it been done does anyone know? I have done a quick sketchup of the sort of idea I had in my head. 2 stacked cubos with a bolt on horn extension. Is that totally mad, or could it work?
Tony Wilkes' plans are managed by Ben who runs Elements Audio.
You can find contact info on their website I'm sure, or if you sign up over at speakerplans you can contact him there - he posts as "Bee". Never seen him around here though.
IIRC, he does give out the plans as long as you make a token donation to the BHF (as Tony died of a heart attack).
Hope that helps.
One other thought - I haven't checked out the total bill of materials but I'd be very surprised if any of the Cubo series came out as light as 25kg; even with a light neo driver I'd expect something that size to be more like 30+.
The amps themselves will only be a few kg on any decent modern powered sub, so weight saving alone isn't going to be a major gain for you I think. Several small vented 15's like Chris suggests may well be your best option if the weight saving is a particularly high priority for you IMO.
Cheers,
David.
You can find contact info on their website I'm sure, or if you sign up over at speakerplans you can contact him there - he posts as "Bee". Never seen him around here though.
IIRC, he does give out the plans as long as you make a token donation to the BHF (as Tony died of a heart attack).
Hope that helps.
One other thought - I haven't checked out the total bill of materials but I'd be very surprised if any of the Cubo series came out as light as 25kg; even with a light neo driver I'd expect something that size to be more like 30+.
The amps themselves will only be a few kg on any decent modern powered sub, so weight saving alone isn't going to be a major gain for you I think. Several small vented 15's like Chris suggests may well be your best option if the weight saving is a particularly high priority for you IMO.
Cheers,
David.
I was thinking a cubo 12 sub would be around 25kg? If it's a bit more it’s not a deal breaker. Weight is a consideration as I have a dodgy back and we are often in small upstairs rooms or basements. But we have managed with active 18's in the past when we had to.
A big consideration is the aesthetics. I know that may sound a bit daft, but one of the keys reasons for wanting to build our own small rig is to have something that is a bit more visually and aurally striking. We only do a handful of gigs a year and it's purely a hobby, we lose money on each one, so we'd like to try and make more on a visual impact when we are in a pop up venue. People really don’t come to see us play, it’s more we are just two guys playing old trance in one of the random rooms that people stumble into on a bar crawl around Manchester.
If we had a better sounding PA system that also looked cool, for want of a better word, I think it might make the whole thing more of an event. Also, I have just turned my garage in to a dedicated word working shop, so I want to build something. Building reflex 15’s just doesn’t get me too excited, I’d really like to try some sort of horn or hybrid horn.
Around 10 years ago I did build some microscoops based on the Staiper design, I built 4 of them out of MDF and used them back in the day when we were doing mobile disco type college parties. I never got them sounding any good, and ever since I’ve wanted another go at it.
Found some old pics of my scoop build, 2009 it says in the album. Damn… That’s also one of my old 15” Wharfdale reflex tops shown too. I used to run 4 micro scoops and 4 of those tops, off some ecler amps. And I wonder why I’ve never been happy with my kick…… Anyway, I abandoned that passive setup a couple of years later and went fully active.
A big consideration is the aesthetics. I know that may sound a bit daft, but one of the keys reasons for wanting to build our own small rig is to have something that is a bit more visually and aurally striking. We only do a handful of gigs a year and it's purely a hobby, we lose money on each one, so we'd like to try and make more on a visual impact when we are in a pop up venue. People really don’t come to see us play, it’s more we are just two guys playing old trance in one of the random rooms that people stumble into on a bar crawl around Manchester.
If we had a better sounding PA system that also looked cool, for want of a better word, I think it might make the whole thing more of an event. Also, I have just turned my garage in to a dedicated word working shop, so I want to build something. Building reflex 15’s just doesn’t get me too excited, I’d really like to try some sort of horn or hybrid horn.
Around 10 years ago I did build some microscoops based on the Staiper design, I built 4 of them out of MDF and used them back in the day when we were doing mobile disco type college parties. I never got them sounding any good, and ever since I’ve wanted another go at it.
Found some old pics of my scoop build, 2009 it says in the album. Damn… That’s also one of my old 15” Wharfdale reflex tops shown too. I used to run 4 micro scoops and 4 of those tops, off some ecler amps. And I wonder why I’ve never been happy with my kick…… Anyway, I abandoned that passive setup a couple of years later and went fully active.
Looking at the SketchUp model, I'd want another sub (or two) per side, and skip the kicks which are (IMO) unnecessary for a system this small.
Neo 15"s in reflex boxes (which I've been running, successfully, for a few years) are a good way of getting a useful amount of LF from a compact box. I did this: PA system check at Batley Rugby Stadium - YouTube
With a pair of 15" subs per side. Mains are 2x10"+HF. I can move each box with one hand.
FWIW, when it comes to transport, it's much easier to move a 2x18" than a pair of 1x 18"s. Most 2x18"s can be tipped back and wheeled into position.
Chris
Neo 15"s in reflex boxes (which I've been running, successfully, for a few years) are a good way of getting a useful amount of LF from a compact box. I did this: PA system check at Batley Rugby Stadium - YouTube
With a pair of 15" subs per side. Mains are 2x10"+HF. I can move each box with one hand.
FWIW, when it comes to transport, it's much easier to move a 2x18" than a pair of 1x 18"s. Most 2x18"s can be tipped back and wheeled into position.
Chris
Simply because a half-decent main speaker will have all the >120Hz output you'll need. Why complicate things further?
As I said in a previous post, take a look at Nexo Alpha. When you're using a system of that sort of scale, a 4-way system makes sense. For anything smaller, 3-way will work just fine.
The 3-way system will have more LF output (since you'll have extra subs), be easier to get up and running (fewer crossover points to dial in), and have a more linear phase response (fewer crossover points).
FWIW, I'm in Sheffield, so we might be able to organise a demo at some point.
Chris
As I said in a previous post, take a look at Nexo Alpha. When you're using a system of that sort of scale, a 4-way system makes sense. For anything smaller, 3-way will work just fine.
The 3-way system will have more LF output (since you'll have extra subs), be easier to get up and running (fewer crossover points to dial in), and have a more linear phase response (fewer crossover points).
FWIW, I'm in Sheffield, so we might be able to organise a demo at some point.
Chris
The HD15 horns & super scoopers were here very popular 30 years ago in clubs.
The HD15 were usually made with two or three parts in parallel, so two or three drivers each cab. Four placed at each corner with HF JBL horns suspended a couple of feet over them.
At that time they were powered by 400W JBL or PD drivers. Now we have KW drivers.
I believe some are still used with newer up-powered drivers.
Don't expect them to be light. Power makes them heavy, unless You use crappy drivers. Use wheels !! Stairs are always a problem...A truck elevator would help.
You will find that even building them Yourself will cost You ~the same as buying them, but You will have the fun building them.
Use plywood for timber. MDF some people say "sucks the life out of them"
Use carpet instead of paint since it lasts more on road abuse.
The like HD15 we use on 150-300 ppl weddings are ~50*70*80 cm which were copied from an installed one. They are easily carried by two people even on venues with less than say 20 stairs.
The HD15 were usually made with two or three parts in parallel, so two or three drivers each cab. Four placed at each corner with HF JBL horns suspended a couple of feet over them.
At that time they were powered by 400W JBL or PD drivers. Now we have KW drivers.
I believe some are still used with newer up-powered drivers.
Don't expect them to be light. Power makes them heavy, unless You use crappy drivers. Use wheels !! Stairs are always a problem...A truck elevator would help.
You will find that even building them Yourself will cost You ~the same as buying them, but You will have the fun building them.
Use plywood for timber. MDF some people say "sucks the life out of them"
Use carpet instead of paint since it lasts more on road abuse.
The like HD15 we use on 150-300 ppl weddings are ~50*70*80 cm which were copied from an installed one. They are easily carried by two people even on venues with less than say 20 stairs.
if your not keen on reflex then the nearest thing that can still be compact is a tapped horn, this design will work down to 40Hz with some EQ:
THAM15 - a compact 15" tapped horn
THAM 15 - Touring Version! (and matching top) - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
you only need a kick section if your tops don't go low enough to meet your subs or your reaching output limitations in the kick range. A typical situation where you needed a kick section would be if you used tops like this:
OHM
which go very very loud but not very low.
Your going to need to get a measurement microphone (or 3 )and learn how to use it to set everything up. ECM8000 is cheap and accurate 20Hz-15Khz, you will also need a mixer/preamp that supplies +48V phantom power. REW is very useful and free software for measurements.
THAM15 - a compact 15" tapped horn
THAM 15 - Touring Version! (and matching top) - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
you only need a kick section if your tops don't go low enough to meet your subs or your reaching output limitations in the kick range. A typical situation where you needed a kick section would be if you used tops like this:
OHM
which go very very loud but not very low.
Your going to need to get a measurement microphone (or 3 )and learn how to use it to set everything up. ECM8000 is cheap and accurate 20Hz-15Khz, you will also need a mixer/preamp that supplies +48V phantom power. REW is very useful and free software for measurements.
Yup, that size box would be in the right ballpark for you, weight wise.
However, I'm not convinced it'll get as far down into the 40Hz range as you've suggested you'd like in the first post. It's hard to be sure as the designer hasn't published models or any measurements other than a comparison to another design, but it does look like it starts dropping off somewhere about 50-ish Hz.
The designer does mention a lower tuned version with different external dimensions in the discussion thread over at freespeakerplans so it may be worth contacting them directly to get that plan rather than the standard one.
Good luck, whatever you decide to go with.
D.
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