Hello folks,
i've been throwing parties for a while now with friends, in the city or in the countryside.
Til that point we've been renting our sound and got a really good deal on a nice l-acoutics system that can be scaled up or down depending on the expected crowd. So we've been getting good sound, but still, been interested in the history of discos, club, soundsystem and had a few experiences of hi-fi club sound (lucky cloud and beauty & the beat - both mancuso / loft inspired parties with khorns) and besides owning (which add its own set of challenges like storing, maintenance etc), i guess what draws me towards building a soundsystem is hi-fi sound, and also it's a bit more sexy to throw parties with your custom hi fi system (if you paint it right) rather than rented black boxes.
Anyway, i'm not a technical person, and despite having read lots of threads here and elsewhere there is still so much i don't know.
For the moment my mind is set on building a 4 way stereo system : so one tweeter, one horn for highs, one cabinet with two woofers for low mid / bass, and two subs by side.
I'm looking at building it gradually because $$$, so not in one go and i'd be starting by the highs / bass sections, before subs, then getting tweeters.
For the highs, i'm looking at the Radian 950pb, which combined with a a tad th4001 (clone, available on ebay & the web) seems like a nice pairing.
For the low mid / bass, i'm looking at building myself an Altec 817 cabinet, with 515 gpa drivers, so 2 drivers each side.
For the sub, i'm looking at making Lab subs (4 of them) (designed by tom danley) with 12inch speakers in it.
I guess, building the altec cabinet and the lab subs is one thing and a challenge in itself with my mininum woodworking skills (but i'd be getting help), but what i'm not really sure about is the coherence of the system as a whole, if each section in relation to the other is right in terms of frequency overlap, crossover etc.
obviously i'd be getting active crossovers, but i'm not sure about those, which i should be getting. For getting the xovers frequency right i'm lucky to be friend with two talended sound engineers, so they'd be helping on that side.
I'd like to know your thoughts on getting started on such a project, if my genereal idea of a system is valid.
thanks
i've been throwing parties for a while now with friends, in the city or in the countryside.
Til that point we've been renting our sound and got a really good deal on a nice l-acoutics system that can be scaled up or down depending on the expected crowd. So we've been getting good sound, but still, been interested in the history of discos, club, soundsystem and had a few experiences of hi-fi club sound (lucky cloud and beauty & the beat - both mancuso / loft inspired parties with khorns) and besides owning (which add its own set of challenges like storing, maintenance etc), i guess what draws me towards building a soundsystem is hi-fi sound, and also it's a bit more sexy to throw parties with your custom hi fi system (if you paint it right) rather than rented black boxes.
Anyway, i'm not a technical person, and despite having read lots of threads here and elsewhere there is still so much i don't know.
For the moment my mind is set on building a 4 way stereo system : so one tweeter, one horn for highs, one cabinet with two woofers for low mid / bass, and two subs by side.
I'm looking at building it gradually because $$$, so not in one go and i'd be starting by the highs / bass sections, before subs, then getting tweeters.
For the highs, i'm looking at the Radian 950pb, which combined with a a tad th4001 (clone, available on ebay & the web) seems like a nice pairing.
For the low mid / bass, i'm looking at building myself an Altec 817 cabinet, with 515 gpa drivers, so 2 drivers each side.
For the sub, i'm looking at making Lab subs (4 of them) (designed by tom danley) with 12inch speakers in it.
I guess, building the altec cabinet and the lab subs is one thing and a challenge in itself with my mininum woodworking skills (but i'd be getting help), but what i'm not really sure about is the coherence of the system as a whole, if each section in relation to the other is right in terms of frequency overlap, crossover etc.
obviously i'd be getting active crossovers, but i'm not sure about those, which i should be getting. For getting the xovers frequency right i'm lucky to be friend with two talended sound engineers, so they'd be helping on that side.
I'd like to know your thoughts on getting started on such a project, if my genereal idea of a system is valid.
thanks
You want to start a big project like this with an idea of what you want the final outcome to be and addopt a specification based approach. All projects are constrained in some ways, for example you have said storage could be an issue so you need to early on define how physicaly large and heavy a system you can deal with. On that point how you will move arround the system is important, if you have to go up stairs you will be quite constrained on maximum box size/weight. Another aspect to consider is the size of crowd and how they will be arranged which will define the coverarage angles of the speakers and a large part of their physical form. While the music genere and required dance floor SPL along with enviroment and listening deistance will define the SPL capability and desired low frequency capabilites.
Its also important to identify what you find defficient about existing systems in order to know how you will improve on them, its not like l-accoustics are cheap crap.
To me the easiest place to start would be to add your own subs to your hire system as these are the simplest type of speaker and you would quickly get someonething out of your work.
Its also important to identify what you find defficient about existing systems in order to know how you will improve on them, its not like l-accoustics are cheap crap.
To me the easiest place to start would be to add your own subs to your hire system as these are the simplest type of speaker and you would quickly get someonething out of your work.
@Sangram sorry, should have known...
@Kipman725 thanks for your answer, i'm not sure i follow you on the first sentence, i mean i do know what i want the final outcome to be, i'm pretty familiar with operating a soundsystem (moving it, setting it up, etc, been doing that for years), and i said storing is a challenge, but actually not so much (it just cost a bit of money and we're actually already looking into renting a space with our crew for our stuff), anyway thats not the main hurdle right now, nor it is down the line (i'm not looking at building a giant soundsystem).
As for crowd size / arrangment of speakers, well i know i'm not gonna build a system that can do it all and i'm looking at starting building a system that can be effective for a decent sized party (say 2/300 people on the dancefloor), we're not into this to make huge (1000) people parties ; also we do change venues regularly (we're definitely not tied to one place), so it's hard (and i'd say impossible) to predict and design a system that's good for every venue we come across.
I do not find anything deficient about the system i'm renting, L-acoustics systems are very good sounding, and i'm perfectly happy with that. The appeal of building and having a soundsystem is in the build itself, the things i'll learn down the way, owning a niece beautiful system (that sound good too obvlsy)... I know it'll be hard to build something better than l-acoustic, but that's not the point.
The obvious bottleneck regarding sound in our parties is not the system, but usually the acoustics of the place we rent, and we've been working on this, but that not the subject of this thread per se.
As i said in my first post, i'm asking for advices, opinions, on the system i intend to put together : is this combination of drivers, horns, cabinets, is sound ?
@Kipman725 thanks for your answer, i'm not sure i follow you on the first sentence, i mean i do know what i want the final outcome to be, i'm pretty familiar with operating a soundsystem (moving it, setting it up, etc, been doing that for years), and i said storing is a challenge, but actually not so much (it just cost a bit of money and we're actually already looking into renting a space with our crew for our stuff), anyway thats not the main hurdle right now, nor it is down the line (i'm not looking at building a giant soundsystem).
As for crowd size / arrangment of speakers, well i know i'm not gonna build a system that can do it all and i'm looking at starting building a system that can be effective for a decent sized party (say 2/300 people on the dancefloor), we're not into this to make huge (1000) people parties ; also we do change venues regularly (we're definitely not tied to one place), so it's hard (and i'd say impossible) to predict and design a system that's good for every venue we come across.
I do not find anything deficient about the system i'm renting, L-acoustics systems are very good sounding, and i'm perfectly happy with that. The appeal of building and having a soundsystem is in the build itself, the things i'll learn down the way, owning a niece beautiful system (that sound good too obvlsy)... I know it'll be hard to build something better than l-acoustic, but that's not the point.
The obvious bottleneck regarding sound in our parties is not the system, but usually the acoustics of the place we rent, and we've been working on this, but that not the subject of this thread per se.
As i said in my first post, i'm asking for advices, opinions, on the system i intend to put together : is this combination of drivers, horns, cabinets, is sound ?
ah I see its for an established event and you want loft party vibes.
Tad th4001+Radian 950pb:
Test Bench: Radian Audio Engineering 950PB and 760NEOPB Compression Drivers | audioXpress
Altec 817 cabinet looks nice and efficient if you can handle the size and weight. However the 515 gpa drivers seem a bit boutique I think you would be much better off with a modern driver that would be cheaper and have better power handling (resulting in less thermal compression) and probably even more efficiency). You could need to do some simulations using something like Hornresp to see what is possible. As a starting point this is a monster 15" horn driver: LOUDSPEAKER 15"P80Fe/N 8 OH
LAB12 subs are OK but where designed a relatively long time ago. The driver has pretty poor power handling which limits maximum output. The other issue is that they are meant to be used in multiples of 4 so if you had only 4 it would probably work best as a mono stack which is limiting placement a little. Modern larger driver subs will give more output with high performance 18"/21" driver 6th order bandpass/tapped horn designs popular at the moment.
dB v2
Ricci's Skram Subwoofer & Files - Bass Projects - Data-Bass Forums
Tad th4001+Radian 950pb:
- 90x40 nominal
- crossover > 680Hz (minimum of minimum recommended xo for compression driver and double horn cuttoff frequency). To get full output from the driver a higher crossover should be used but in the scenario your describing if you need full output something has gone wrong.
- Likely to have narrow dispersion in the top octave but this will sound OK without additional tweeters. Perhaps a ribbon for >10kHz? (power demands are low) or the classic choice of JBL slot tweeters
- Will need a lot of EQ (~15dB) to be flat on axis at 20kHz so this is worth thinking about how you will do it to maintain signal to noise ratio. It might be worth implementing the majority of this EQ in a passive XO on the compression driver. Look up constant directivity EQ for some ideas.
Test Bench: Radian Audio Engineering 950PB and 760NEOPB Compression Drivers | audioXpress
Altec 817 cabinet looks nice and efficient if you can handle the size and weight. However the 515 gpa drivers seem a bit boutique I think you would be much better off with a modern driver that would be cheaper and have better power handling (resulting in less thermal compression) and probably even more efficiency). You could need to do some simulations using something like Hornresp to see what is possible. As a starting point this is a monster 15" horn driver: LOUDSPEAKER 15"P80Fe/N 8 OH
LAB12 subs are OK but where designed a relatively long time ago. The driver has pretty poor power handling which limits maximum output. The other issue is that they are meant to be used in multiples of 4 so if you had only 4 it would probably work best as a mono stack which is limiting placement a little. Modern larger driver subs will give more output with high performance 18"/21" driver 6th order bandpass/tapped horn designs popular at the moment.
dB v2
Ricci's Skram Subwoofer & Files - Bass Projects - Data-Bass Forums
@Kipman725, thanks a lot for your detailed answer.
Yes it's for an established event ! i'm not trying to replicate loft parties but you got the idea right
duly noted for the xover on the tad horn and thks for the link.
Yes, looking at tweeters, jbl slot are an obvious choice. What about compression tweeters like Fostex T925A ? Looking at everything, but maybe i should stick with the classic and popular in discos jbl slots.
Ok for the EQ in a passive XO, obvsly didn't think about that.
About 817 cabinet. Size and weight is definitely something to think about, not sure about this yet, i guess i could go with 2 x 816a cabs, i have to think more about this. I thought about the 515 gpa driver because it's a recommended pairing but i'll into what you are saying.
LAB12 - yep was talking to a sound engineer friend yesterday and he we pointing me to the same advices, so i need to look at other designs.
Anyway all of this is really helpful, i have a lot more research to do.
Yes it's for an established event ! i'm not trying to replicate loft parties but you got the idea right
duly noted for the xover on the tad horn and thks for the link.
Yes, looking at tweeters, jbl slot are an obvious choice. What about compression tweeters like Fostex T925A ? Looking at everything, but maybe i should stick with the classic and popular in discos jbl slots.
Ok for the EQ in a passive XO, obvsly didn't think about that.
About 817 cabinet. Size and weight is definitely something to think about, not sure about this yet, i guess i could go with 2 x 816a cabs, i have to think more about this. I thought about the 515 gpa driver because it's a recommended pairing but i'll into what you are saying.
LAB12 - yep was talking to a sound engineer friend yesterday and he we pointing me to the same advices, so i need to look at other designs.
Anyway all of this is really helpful, i have a lot more research to do.
Fidelity in the 10 - 20KHz region isn't super important, at high volume you can cut this octave and you won't notice a big change in the timbre of the sound its more of an effect than a fundimental requiremnt so I would prioritise other parts of the system before buying tweeters as expensive as the Fostex. Just look at how ragged the response of an average compresion driver and horn is once the dome starts to breakup to see what kind of 'sins' sound acceptable. I have heard the classic JBL slots and they sound good but getting them means dealing in often overpriced vintage components. Beyma seem to make an equivlent version: https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fich...kers-data-sheet-compression-tweeter-CP21F.pdf I have been informed by otherse these don't sound as good but they are vintage JBL collectors so would say that, in my view they are most likley to be almost clones of the JBL designs with a modern magnet.
The 816a looks to be a chopped in half 817 and has simlar has specs that also look like a choped in half 817 so I don't think much would be lost in terms of maximum output or LF corner by going with 4*816a
The 816a looks to be a chopped in half 817 and has simlar has specs that also look like a choped in half 817 so I don't think much would be lost in terms of maximum output or LF corner by going with 4*816a
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thanks again for you advice. Regarding tweeter the beyma looks like a nice cheap alternative for jbl and i could definitely start with those, anyway, they are last on my list of components to purchase, after getting/building the sub, highs, and bass sections and purchasing a filter.
I have done a lot of reading since your first comments, notably on the sub, read the thread on ricci's skram. It seems like it's would be a good path to diy, popular with builders etc. I have also look extensively at Xoc's Th18. How would those these two compare, in terms of sound, and secondly in terms of construction ? Xoc's because of it's similarities to Danleys notably is of appeal to me, notably bcz people think higly of their musicality. I'm definitely looking for loud subs but not for the loudest, or the thing that plays the lowest.
Yes the 816a looks exactly like a half 817 cab, so it would be easier on the backs to carry them around. When talking about the 515 gpa drivers, well i didn't had the price then, just saw their shopify website, and it's definitely out of budget considering i'd need four, plus your opinion on them, so your suggestion of the beyma 15" is making sense.
I have done a lot of reading since your first comments, notably on the sub, read the thread on ricci's skram. It seems like it's would be a good path to diy, popular with builders etc. I have also look extensively at Xoc's Th18. How would those these two compare, in terms of sound, and secondly in terms of construction ? Xoc's because of it's similarities to Danleys notably is of appeal to me, notably bcz people think higly of their musicality. I'm definitely looking for loud subs but not for the loudest, or the thing that plays the lowest.
Yes the 816a looks exactly like a half 817 cab, so it would be easier on the backs to carry them around. When talking about the 515 gpa drivers, well i didn't had the price then, just saw their shopify website, and it's definitely out of budget considering i'd need four, plus your opinion on them, so your suggestion of the beyma 15" is making sense.
Excellent, it's good that you have the support to do the measurements properly.
I probably sound like a broken record (I've posted on the subject a few times recently), but I really like my Powersoft T-series amps. They're excellent for small to medium sized PA systems. Plenty of power, world-class DSP, excellent sound quality.
A T604 with Ch1/2 bridged for bass and 3/4 for mids and highs per side would work nicely.
Chris
I probably sound like a broken record (I've posted on the subject a few times recently), but I really like my Powersoft T-series amps. They're excellent for small to medium sized PA systems. Plenty of power, world-class DSP, excellent sound quality.
A T604 with Ch1/2 bridged for bass and 3/4 for mids and highs per side would work nicely.
Chris
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