Hi ya guys and any girls on here, I have four Wharfedale Pro Delta 218B dual 18" subs and two Delta 215 mid/highs, i'm thinking of buying four Delta X15B single 15" subs so I can operate the Delta 218B subs from 30-60hz, the Delta X15B subs from 60-100hz and then the Delta 215 mid/highs from 100hz upwards.
My question is would you think the difference would be good adding the 15" subs for just the kick drum range? My subs are great they go quite low and give you a nice rumble in the stomach but they don't give you that slam for kick drums. I know 15" drivers are better for kick drums so I figured i'd think about adding four Delta X15B subs.
Thanks anyway I really do genuinely apreciate any help you people give me.
My question is would you think the difference would be good adding the 15" subs for just the kick drum range? My subs are great they go quite low and give you a nice rumble in the stomach but they don't give you that slam for kick drums. I know 15" drivers are better for kick drums so I figured i'd think about adding four Delta X15B subs.
Thanks anyway I really do genuinely apreciate any help you people give me.
Considering the average kick drum is tuned to around 90HZ, not as low as a bass guitar, bottom B is around 31HZ.
You need to push a lot of air and 15" subs are the ones I would go for. Keep the subs close together to avoid pockets of no sub sound in the room due to reflections between the subs.
You need to push a lot of air and 15" subs are the ones I would go for. Keep the subs close together to avoid pockets of no sub sound in the room due to reflections between the subs.
Kick drums for dance music are between 70-85hz, I used to make dance music and knew a lot of artists and producers, but yeah i'll be buying four of them and powering them with probably a QSCRMX4050HD amp giving each sub about 700 continuous average power. I wouldn't wanna give them anymore than that because I play techno and much of it is VERY compressed and with a crest factor that's ver low. Somew techno has a crest factor as low as 4db.
I'll be using my system in pubs and community halls, i'm powering my four Delta 218B subs with two Behringer NX6000 amps, one sub per channel giving each sub around 1.8k which is what the NX6000 has been bench tested as being able to output continuously but with bursts of about 2k. I'm upgrading my Delta 215 mid/highs soon with RCF MB15N405 drivers and Eighteen Sound compression drivers because although standard they sound lovely for dual 15" full range cabs they're not loud enough to keep up spl wise with the four Delta 218B subs running full power.
You already have four 15" drivers in the 215s so how is it you don't have lots of kick. How are you processing this system? I don't think 15" subs won't be any better at producing kick than the 18" subs you have... the drivers are the wrong type, those RCF 15 midbass drivers are the right tool for the job though.
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To be honest the mid/highs are quasi 3-way so only one of the 15" drivers in each mid/high is providing low frequencies, the upper 15" driver handles mid to upper mid frequnencies. I think the reason the dual 18" subs don't provide that kick drum slam is because they're tuned low. The dual 18" subs enclosures are tuned at 38hz. They provide lovely lower stomach tickling bass and there is a bit of kick drum but I know 15" and 12" drivers provide better kick drum slam.
Processing wise I have a loudspeaker management system, I use no time alignment or eq on inputs or output on the unit.
Sometimes I run the system with two subs per side with one Delta 215 mid/high on top of each pair of subs. Other times I run the system with all four subs clustered in a 2x2 arrangment and splay the mid/highs.
Crossover point is 90hz.
Yeah if both 15's were fully parallel they would deliver better kick, but proper mid-bass driver also helps that. What was your setup plan with the new drivers in those cabs? Do these boxes have a 2" exit compression driver? That would be the time to reconfigure them, run the 15's in parallel form 80hz to 800hz where the 2" CD takes over and add a super tweeter if you feel the need for some sparkle on the very top.. although a good 3" VC compression driver can deliver pretty nice high end with some EQ.
With the RCF MB15N405 I was thinking about taking out the crossover in the Delta 215 mid/highs and wiring the 15" drivers to pins 1&2 and then wiring the compression driver to pins 3&4 and running actively maybe powering the 15" drivers with a Behringer NX6000 as it's able to output about 2,000 watts per channel into 4 ohms and then using a QSC PLX1202 to power the compression drivers with one per channel. I was thinking about maybe a 1.2khz crossover frequency between the 15" drivers and the compression driver. The standard compression drivers in the mid/highs are 2" with 1.4" exits but the compression drivers i'm thinking of putting in are either BMS 4554 or P-Audio BM-D740 as they're extremely efficient.
Just a quick note that with 4x 2x18" subs, adding 4x 1x15" subs is barely going to help.
Splitting the LF range into single octaves invites more difficulty with crossovers etc - not something I'd bother with.
FWIW, saying "all kick drums are tuned between X and Y" is pretty much universally wrong. I've seen one which had strong 16Hz and 32Hz components.
I also suspect that the music you're playing does not have a 4dB crest factor. Continuous sine tones have a 3dB crest factor.
My recommendation, before swapping out any drivers or anything else, would be to grab a measurement mic and get your subs to mains crossover sorted out. A 10+dB suckout where they're not aligned properly will rob your system of any "kick" it might have.
It seems like you've asked similar questions on a lot of forums now. What is it you're hoping to achieve?
Chris
Splitting the LF range into single octaves invites more difficulty with crossovers etc - not something I'd bother with.
FWIW, saying "all kick drums are tuned between X and Y" is pretty much universally wrong. I've seen one which had strong 16Hz and 32Hz components.
I also suspect that the music you're playing does not have a 4dB crest factor. Continuous sine tones have a 3dB crest factor.
My recommendation, before swapping out any drivers or anything else, would be to grab a measurement mic and get your subs to mains crossover sorted out. A 10+dB suckout where they're not aligned properly will rob your system of any "kick" it might have.
It seems like you've asked similar questions on a lot of forums now. What is it you're hoping to achieve?
Chris
Found the quote.
Grab a Behringer UMC202HD and an ECM8000, and install REW. Learn how to measure stuff.
Chances are your cabs aren't summing properly in the crossover region, which leaves lots of "bottom end grunt", but not much "kick".
Getting things aligned and EQ'd properly will improve the sound immensely, and it's going to cost way less than one of those 15" midbass drivers.
If you don't want to take the time to learn to measure stuff, feel free to send me an email. It's a service I offer.
Chris
It's Linkwitz-Riley 24db/octave.
I was thinking about upgrading the 15" drivers before I thought about the kick drum lack of impact because I wanted louder drivers with lower power compression and higher sensitivity. I already have an audio interface I have an Audials ID14, I do have NCH Wavepad but I have no idea how to measure tiume alignment and it's not easy to learn.
i agree that measuring stuff is the best method.
but berating someone who hasn't or lacks the ability to do so is not the way forward.....
as mentioned (and the point i was working towards) the acoustic sum of the bass/sub to mid/high sections is likely wrong.
the quick and easy/dirty way to evaluate the situation is to try flipping the polarity of your subs.
it may be old school thinking and methodology but the difference will be readily apparent....no measurements necessary (sorry if that cuts your grass on charging for measurements Chris!)
but berating someone who hasn't or lacks the ability to do so is not the way forward.....
as mentioned (and the point i was working towards) the acoustic sum of the bass/sub to mid/high sections is likely wrong.
the quick and easy/dirty way to evaluate the situation is to try flipping the polarity of your subs.
it may be old school thinking and methodology but the difference will be readily apparent....no measurements necessary (sorry if that cuts your grass on charging for measurements Chris!)
I'm not incapable of learning but I do find it hard to take in and remember what I learn because I have ADHD. I have read you can get time delay figures in the ballpark by measuring the distance from driver to driver. Does that work?
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