Hello all.
Joined the forum because I'm currently stuck between the realms of home hi-fi and pro sound, I need some advise.
My current set-up is as follows.
Yamaha RX-A3030 A/V amp.
Running
Monitor Audio BX6's bi-amped
Monitor Audio BX2's rear
I'm aware I'm not using this to its full potential... but this is just the whole Sky TV thing....
Then when the music plays I switch on...
2x REL R528 active 12" Subs
Plus...
Yamaha P7000S Power Amp (on a pre-amp out from the A3030)
powering a Funktion One MB210 Bass Bin.
Now this is going to sound like a lot to most. I live in the middle of nowhere, so I can make as much noise as I want. I'm also a 40+ dance music fan so I recall with much love the days of PA sound systems with bass which would hurt your vital organs.
Music sources can be vinyl, CD or WAV files... I'm anti MP3 (they have their place but not to a volume scale).
So far I've replaced the REL cones five times, they've been run in... tweaked but I find some of the modern day music is so focused on being played on phones, the sub is hiding, and they've died when someone has plugged in. There's no bass dial on the 3030 you can dive to.
The Funktion One is a lovely but I don't thing the P7000S serves it with enough oomph... I've taken it to my pals bar to DJ (powered by his amplification on site) and it sings beyond that the P7000S can provide.
The REL subs are trying to deal with a bass frequency below the F1, and they struggle with the output. I'm thinking I should just eliminate the A/V amp and go pro with speaker management, independent speakers... pre-amp and power amps.
Thoughts?
Joined the forum because I'm currently stuck between the realms of home hi-fi and pro sound, I need some advise.
My current set-up is as follows.
Yamaha RX-A3030 A/V amp.
Running
Monitor Audio BX6's bi-amped
Monitor Audio BX2's rear
I'm aware I'm not using this to its full potential... but this is just the whole Sky TV thing....
Then when the music plays I switch on...
2x REL R528 active 12" Subs
Plus...
Yamaha P7000S Power Amp (on a pre-amp out from the A3030)
powering a Funktion One MB210 Bass Bin.
Now this is going to sound like a lot to most. I live in the middle of nowhere, so I can make as much noise as I want. I'm also a 40+ dance music fan so I recall with much love the days of PA sound systems with bass which would hurt your vital organs.
Music sources can be vinyl, CD or WAV files... I'm anti MP3 (they have their place but not to a volume scale).
So far I've replaced the REL cones five times, they've been run in... tweaked but I find some of the modern day music is so focused on being played on phones, the sub is hiding, and they've died when someone has plugged in. There's no bass dial on the 3030 you can dive to.
The Funktion One is a lovely but I don't thing the P7000S serves it with enough oomph... I've taken it to my pals bar to DJ (powered by his amplification on site) and it sings beyond that the P7000S can provide.
The REL subs are trying to deal with a bass frequency below the F1, and they struggle with the output. I'm thinking I should just eliminate the A/V amp and go pro with speaker management, independent speakers... pre-amp and power amps.
Thoughts?
Some thoughts...
- If you keep blowing the REL subs, you're asking too much of them. Replace with something else.
- The P7000 amp is reasonably powerful. Do you ever see red lights on it? If not, you're not giving it enough signal. Increase the gain controls, or find a way of boosting the signal levels.
- The MB210 isn't much of a "subwoofer", with a -3dB point of 55Hz.
If it was mine, I'd think seriously about replacing all your LF-producing equipment with an NU6000DSP and a pair of Tiny15 subs, or similar.
Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer
You could also look at going bigger, if you want more LF extension.
Where abouts in the UK are you?
Chris
- If you keep blowing the REL subs, you're asking too much of them. Replace with something else.
- The P7000 amp is reasonably powerful. Do you ever see red lights on it? If not, you're not giving it enough signal. Increase the gain controls, or find a way of boosting the signal levels.
- The MB210 isn't much of a "subwoofer", with a -3dB point of 55Hz.
If it was mine, I'd think seriously about replacing all your LF-producing equipment with an NU6000DSP and a pair of Tiny15 subs, or similar.
Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer
You could also look at going bigger, if you want more LF extension.
Where abouts in the UK are you?
Chris
I agree with Chris... stop effin around and get some proper 15" or 18" subs.. LOL.
I'm also having a hard time understanding how a P7000 isn't enough power for this sub, I own 2 of these powering double 18s that have no problem producing sound levels that generate complaints from 11 floors above a hotel ballroom.
Actually.. maybe I do understand how this is possible. This amp requires +8dbu input for full power which is quite high for even a pro amp, that translates into 1.95v while your average AVR output can only generate 0.5-0.775v max and that means you haven't been getting more than about 200w out of this amp.. assuming you have the sub connected to 1 channel.
I'm also having a hard time understanding how a P7000 isn't enough power for this sub, I own 2 of these powering double 18s that have no problem producing sound levels that generate complaints from 11 floors above a hotel ballroom.
Actually.. maybe I do understand how this is possible. This amp requires +8dbu input for full power which is quite high for even a pro amp, that translates into 1.95v while your average AVR output can only generate 0.5-0.775v max and that means you haven't been getting more than about 200w out of this amp.. assuming you have the sub connected to 1 channel.
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Thanks for the replies.
Yes I have been pushing the REL subs to hard. When I got out my 2up-2down terrace and went mad... I made the mistake of walking into an audiophile showroom and asking for the most powerful subs they had. However I don't think their usual clientele want silly SPL in their living rooms.
when I've ordered replacement cones from REL... they think I'm a loon.
Agreed the MB210 isn't a really a sub... it pushes the upper bass frequency nicely when it gets the right drive.
That said I did make some progress with modification yesterday, the 528's have what they market as "passive radiators" on the base, which make them somewhere in between a ported and baffle design. I removed one yesterday and cut a "plug plate" out of 18mm ply. This has reduced the travel of the cone so I can get a bit more out of it, well quite a lot actually as that one managed to disconnect itself from the input RCA as it wandered away from its spot.
That NU6000DSP looks like a nice bit of kit... only found one on eBay though, nowhere seems to have stock, some say discontinued but its still on the Behringer website.
I've never seen red LED's on the input stage so maybe there lies my problem, can I boost the pre amp line out with something like this?? https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/...krOExJ4JLsAmUtJyJZ5bjnC0ue1ylaqkaAp9HEALw_wcB
The P7000S has TRS and XLR inputs, I've been using an phono to XLR plug adapter to get the line out signal into the power amp.
Yes I have been pushing the REL subs to hard. When I got out my 2up-2down terrace and went mad... I made the mistake of walking into an audiophile showroom and asking for the most powerful subs they had. However I don't think their usual clientele want silly SPL in their living rooms.
when I've ordered replacement cones from REL... they think I'm a loon.Agreed the MB210 isn't a really a sub... it pushes the upper bass frequency nicely when it gets the right drive.
That said I did make some progress with modification yesterday, the 528's have what they market as "passive radiators" on the base, which make them somewhere in between a ported and baffle design. I removed one yesterday and cut a "plug plate" out of 18mm ply. This has reduced the travel of the cone so I can get a bit more out of it, well quite a lot actually as that one managed to disconnect itself from the input RCA as it wandered away from its spot.
That NU6000DSP looks like a nice bit of kit... only found one on eBay though, nowhere seems to have stock, some say discontinued but its still on the Behringer website.
I've never seen red LED's on the input stage so maybe there lies my problem, can I boost the pre amp line out with something like this?? https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/...krOExJ4JLsAmUtJyJZ5bjnC0ue1ylaqkaAp9HEALw_wcB
The P7000S has TRS and XLR inputs, I've been using an phono to XLR plug adapter to get the line out signal into the power amp.
Some thoughts....
- Removing the passive radiator will actually lose you some output.
- The NU6000DSP has recently been replaced with the NX range of amps, though I do have a few iNukes that will be up for sale in the coming months.
- I really do think you ought to sell the lot and start again. A couple of those 15"s will literally eat your current setup for what you want to do with it. The total cost (amp, wood, drivers) would be around £1000 all done, which is less than the price of one of your REL subs.
- REL think you're a loon because they never thought their products would be used to attempt to recreate the feeling of being in a top-end nightclub!
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I do want you to stop wasting money constantly repairing things because you keep breaking the wrong tool for the job.
Box-for-box, those 15"s can put about 10dB on the REL subs. You'd need 6x REL subs to match 2x 15"s.
Get the right tool for the job.
Chris
- Removing the passive radiator will actually lose you some output.
- The NU6000DSP has recently been replaced with the NX range of amps, though I do have a few iNukes that will be up for sale in the coming months.
- I really do think you ought to sell the lot and start again. A couple of those 15"s will literally eat your current setup for what you want to do with it. The total cost (amp, wood, drivers) would be around £1000 all done, which is less than the price of one of your REL subs.
- REL think you're a loon because they never thought their products would be used to attempt to recreate the feeling of being in a top-end nightclub!
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I do want you to stop wasting money constantly repairing things because you keep breaking the wrong tool for the job.
Box-for-box, those 15"s can put about 10dB on the REL subs. You'd need 6x REL subs to match 2x 15"s.
Get the right tool for the job.
Chris
No mate, advise fully appreciated. I'm happy to start again... tho the house I've just bought which gives me the freedom to have as much volume as I like is a renovation project and the list of jobs, well its long... time is an issue.
I've got a table saw, cross cut saw... roughly how long would it take to build a pair of those 15" boxes?
With a good tablesaw, you could probably get a pair done in a day. Clamp up and let the glue dry overnight, and they'll be ready in the morning.
Let me know which drivers you're thinking of using. I have 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060, and 4x Beyma 15P1200Nd. They're within 1dB of each other, so I mix and match as I like.
If you go for an NU6000DSP (or the newer NX6000D), try to find 4ohm drivers if you can. That'll get around 2KW/ch out of the amp, which is about right for this sort of driver. I use a Crown MA12000i, but I need to drive up to eight of them.
Chris
Edit - depending on your musical tastes, it might be worth considering 18" drivers, and aiming for 30Hz extension. I wanted the Tiny15" to go low enough to cover most DJs and live music, reasonably loud, yet I can still lift one with one hand. It's a nice balance, but you can get more output and/or extension by going bigger.
Let me know which drivers you're thinking of using. I have 4x Faital Pro 15HP1060, and 4x Beyma 15P1200Nd. They're within 1dB of each other, so I mix and match as I like.
If you go for an NU6000DSP (or the newer NX6000D), try to find 4ohm drivers if you can. That'll get around 2KW/ch out of the amp, which is about right for this sort of driver. I use a Crown MA12000i, but I need to drive up to eight of them.
Chris
Edit - depending on your musical tastes, it might be worth considering 18" drivers, and aiming for 30Hz extension. I wanted the Tiny15" to go low enough to cover most DJs and live music, reasonably loud, yet I can still lift one with one hand. It's a nice balance, but you can get more output and/or extension by going bigger.
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Yes I have a very good table saw and could easily spare a day on such a worthy project. That said, I read you thread and I must admit... felt out of my depth almost immediately. I could build a box no problem, but the tech side of it is rocket science to me. Unfortunately, I'm assuming photobucket ate your build photo's also.
Yep, Photobucket ate the photos.
The plans that I linked to are good, though, and there's all the information needed to get them up and running.. You'll need to make your own cutsheet etc.
It's not an especially difficult build. Is there anything in particular you got stuck on?
All you really need to know is that this cabinet loaded with a good 15" driver will manage 121dB sine tones (after port compression) from 40Hz and upwards.
You can do this: YouTube
With four of them. You can read about other adventures with them on my website (link in signature).
The things you need to do now are:
- Decide if 40Hz extension is enough for you.
- Pick a good 15" driver and an amplifier to suit.
Chris
The plans that I linked to are good, though, and there's all the information needed to get them up and running.. You'll need to make your own cutsheet etc.
It's not an especially difficult build. Is there anything in particular you got stuck on?
All you really need to know is that this cabinet loaded with a good 15" driver will manage 121dB sine tones (after port compression) from 40Hz and upwards.
You can do this: YouTube
With four of them. You can read about other adventures with them on my website (link in signature).
The things you need to do now are:
- Decide if 40Hz extension is enough for you.
- Pick a good 15" driver and an amplifier to suit.
Chris
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