ScottG, would you expand on your experience with the (Peerless)/ScanSpeak D2608/913000 and the SB ring domes? And also if you have any comparison with the Peerless XT25BG60-04 nipple dome (which is on sale at Digikey for $28)?
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Old men (>50 years) talking about tweeters is like blind men taking about colors.
It's comments like this that make me want to get my walking stick out and shake it vigorously.
@Darakon, In general you are right, but in my opinion you are generalizing a bit, and I'll explain why by telling you an anecdote.
I am over 50 years of age, and last year I noticed that the boiler mounted in my kitchen was emitting an anomalous hiss.
No one in the house heard this hissing, but to me it was clearly audible and annoying. Turning my head, it appeared and disappeared.
So I took my laptop, plugged in the microphone and opened the spectrum analyzer.
Voila ', a very clear 15kHz signal was visible on the screen over the noisefloor.
When I called the boiler servicing worker, he couldn't hear the whistle either, I had to show him the spectrum analyzer too, letting him see how the level changed by moving the microphone.
He changed a pcb and the hiss disappeared.
What was it I don't know, a coil that resonated? I repeat, I don't know.
What is certain is that this man over fifty could hear the hiss loud and clear, and others did not.
We are not all the same.
There are statistics that define an average, but they are indicative.
In my case, at my age no longer very young I am still able to hear certain sounds, other people much younger than me are not able.
I know people who suffer from tinnitus at the age of 30!
It depends on many factors, certainly also on how much we have exposed ourselves to more or less loud noises in life.
For example, I have never worked in noisy environments and I have always listened to music at modest levels, because sounds of a certain intensity physically bother me.
I am over 50 years of age, and last year I noticed that the boiler mounted in my kitchen was emitting an anomalous hiss.
No one in the house heard this hissing, but to me it was clearly audible and annoying. Turning my head, it appeared and disappeared.
So I took my laptop, plugged in the microphone and opened the spectrum analyzer.
Voila ', a very clear 15kHz signal was visible on the screen over the noisefloor.
When I called the boiler servicing worker, he couldn't hear the whistle either, I had to show him the spectrum analyzer too, letting him see how the level changed by moving the microphone.
He changed a pcb and the hiss disappeared.
What was it I don't know, a coil that resonated? I repeat, I don't know.
What is certain is that this man over fifty could hear the hiss loud and clear, and others did not.
We are not all the same.
There are statistics that define an average, but they are indicative.
In my case, at my age no longer very young I am still able to hear certain sounds, other people much younger than me are not able.
I know people who suffer from tinnitus at the age of 30!
It depends on many factors, certainly also on how much we have exposed ourselves to more or less loud noises in life.
For example, I have never worked in noisy environments and I have always listened to music at modest levels, because sounds of a certain intensity physically bother me.
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I know this is how to make friends here.
Sorry for provoking.
..I just want to say sometimes its good to question what you hear and what is just imagination (or expectation).
Otherwise:
I made good experience with seas tweeters. Scan Speak I tried a few since they look very nice on the paper but they did not convince me at listening test.
Even more important than the tweeter it self is, how it is implemented in your speaker concept (distance to mid-speaker, baffle geometry, cross-over)
Sorry for provoking.
..I just want to say sometimes its good to question what you hear and what is just imagination (or expectation).
Otherwise:
I made good experience with seas tweeters. Scan Speak I tried a few since they look very nice on the paper but they did not convince me at listening test.
Even more important than the tweeter it self is, how it is implemented in your speaker concept (distance to mid-speaker, baffle geometry, cross-over)
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As far as I know, it is literally the same as all other tweeters.
But for some reasons the Germans like to use different product numbers.
(for many many years now, even the old Intertechnik brochures had these different numbers).
In general all Seas tweeters are almost the same, just with additions on it.
Chamber, no-chamber, ferro fluid, no-ferro, alu or soft dome etc etc.
De NF900 (H1025) is basically just very similar to a H1211.
(forgot what the D stands for again with Seas)
But even a 27TFF performs really nice.
For soft domes I would rather take a SB these days, just cheaper, perform the same or very similar.
My point merely was that not much has happened in tweeter land for about 30 years . I believe we even had beryllium then. Compared Esotars amongst other exotic units to Vifa D26 then (with better ears than I have today) and the latter performed just as well. Not only to my ears mind you.
The only drivers I have had the pleasure to experience that performed really different were the Magnat plasma and the line sources in Apogees and ML statements. Not better, but different.
. I believe we even had beryllium then. Compared Esotars amongst other exotic units to Vifa D26 then (with better ears than I have today) and the latter performed just as well. Not only to my ears mind you.The only drivers I have had the pleasure to experience that performed really different were the Magnat plasma and the line sources in Apogees and ML statements. Not better, but different.
There is always the caveat of having heard them in a system (in some cases commercial, and others DIY). Still, the result (or the particular aspects) always have a similar signature in my experience. There is also the chance that they have changed with time and in the case of the D2608 - I haven't heard it since it was produced by Peerless.
-in any event, to add further:
The D2608 sounds a bit "crispy" (which leads to hard/harsh result depending on implementation and playback material) to me at its higher freq.s >4kHz ..where as my favored STAC sounds a bit "whispy") - the difference is literally material IMO at these higher freq.s: sounding a bit over-damped where decay doesn't reach quite as low in spls. It also sounds a bit over-damped at lower freq.s as well reproducing depth less well (..though almost all tweeters of a similar diameter tend to do this including the STAC, though the STAC does is better to about 2.5-2 kHz). Note: Hiquphon is an anomaly here - despite the smaller diameter drivers they tend to do depth very well and I think overall you can attribute this at least partially to their greater linear excursion ability. Hiquphon tweeters on the other hand don't seem to produce the sort of low level detail of either.
SB ring domes (the "soft" variety) seem to lack the detail of either the D2608 or the STAC, and don't have great depth - again, over-damped (and for these driver's its broad-band). Best comparison is to the SS "soft" ring-domes - those tend to have better depth and detail. Obviously they don't have the mechanical "nipple", but less obviously SS pays more attention to the dome diaphragm with less stiff/damping and more spot damping, it's rather like they start with a thinner fabric and then spot-damp the rear of the fabric. Once the freq. response is accounted for in a design - they tend to sound a bit more "natural" without substantial damping.
The cloth "ring" type: "natural" sounding like the ring domes from SS but lacking some depth depending on the freq. relative to better domes. Also, image "development" is lacking (sort of pin-point on the cheaper models and 2D on the more expensive models). Plus, off-axis at the highest freq.s isn't particularly good with these drivers.
Really if you want any of the soft ring-type my suggestion would be the ring domes from SS. IF you don't want that extra detail from something like the D2608 or the STAC, then the D2604/833000 is really good deal. As for the Peerless version of it? I don't know - haven't heard it, but my guess is that the SS has a bit more detail and perhaps depth (..they seem to pay more attention to the final subjective result with their implementations). Note: the D2604/833000 is also excellent with 6"-8" waveguides (..better than most other dome-types in waveguides).
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I think it's a learned behavior, brain auto-correcting for some age losses when most other males don't.
Drives me crazy when I go into places that still have tube florescent lights and one (or more) of them is going bad and making that ultra-high pitch sound.
My point merely was that not much has happened in tweeter land for about 30 years
The only drivers I have had the pleasure to experience that performed really different were the Magnat plasma and the line sources in Apogees and ML statements. Not better, but different.
Oh sorry, yeah I didn't catch that.
Yeah, that is definitely true for tweeters.
Actually I have an old Isophon tweeter here, that performs extremely nice.
The biggest difference is more consistency and just production quality in general nowadays.
Tolerances seem to be a little more tight as well.
Well the Viawaves are a bit different - they have an integrated surround. The SRT-7 also has (unusually) decent objective performance:
Viawave SRT-7 | HiFiCompass
Really, other than price the only thing I might complain about here is the typical limited vertical dispersion (because it's 2" high).
Speaking of planars, after experimenting with the various types, in the end I came to the conclusion that all of them, magnetoplanars, ribbons, electrostatics, can lead to sometimes spectacular results, but inexorably with side effects, which overcome the enthusiasm of the past, I can no longer live together.
Even their mode of emission (they are often dipoles and line-sources) does not convince me at all.
I recently dusted off two old Acoustat hybrids that I hadn't listened to in years, and seriously, their way of recreating the soundstage, today I find it unnatural. In some ways great, in others simply "fake".
Ok, stereo is an illusion, but a good magnetodynamic speaker deceives me better.
For me, magnetodynamic technology offers more honest and balanced results. On certain parameters perhaps they yield here and there with respect to exotic solutions, but they have limitations that I personally find more easily digestible.
However, let's face it, in the 1980s the qualitative gap between planar solutions and conventional transducers was much more marked than today. Perhaps it is no coincidence that at the time, planars were much more widespread in high-end systems than today.
Even their mode of emission (they are often dipoles and line-sources) does not convince me at all.
I recently dusted off two old Acoustat hybrids that I hadn't listened to in years, and seriously, their way of recreating the soundstage, today I find it unnatural. In some ways great, in others simply "fake".
Ok, stereo is an illusion, but a good magnetodynamic speaker deceives me better.
For me, magnetodynamic technology offers more honest and balanced results. On certain parameters perhaps they yield here and there with respect to exotic solutions, but they have limitations that I personally find more easily digestible.
However, let's face it, in the 1980s the qualitative gap between planar solutions and conventional transducers was much more marked than today. Perhaps it is no coincidence that at the time, planars were much more widespread in high-end systems than today.
The ferrofluid is an unknown, it is probably altered. The impedance module shows a resonance set higher than it should (1.2kHz) but I must say that at the same time the peak is VERY smooth, a sign that the damping is still very high. Perhaps the magnetic oil is more viscous than originally, but the damping action is unchanged. What I wanted to know is if the D28/2 today remains a good transducer, or if it is to be considered outdated, for example by the two mentioned tweeters.
To be clear, if it was worth it, I could replace the ferrofluid myself.
To be clear, if it was worth it, I could replace the ferrofluid myself.
You might want to consider the Bliesma T25S-6, if it's not too expensive for you. An independent review is here:
BlieSMa T25S-6 (pre-production sample) | HiFiCompass
BlieSMa T25S-6 (pre-production sample) | HiFiCompass
I have never understood why the D28 was acclaimed so much. I have a pair without ff lying around, but ever since I discovered that resonance at about 17kHz… they actually perform worse than the bunch of cheap(er) soft dome tweeters of the usual brands. Then and now.
But then again, I’m not a believer in those ridiculously high priced tweeters anyway. Differences really are very small and/or rather emanating from different directivity characteristics than from measurable distortion figures.
But then again, I’m not a believer in those ridiculously high priced tweeters anyway. Differences really are very small and/or rather emanating from different directivity characteristics than from measurable distortion figures.
Thanks for expanding on that, ScottG. I'm leaning toward one of the larger SB ring domes, either SB29RDAC-C000-4 or the neo magnet, small face SB29RDNC-C000-4. I'm stuck on the idea of wanting to combine mid-woofer and tweeter form the same brand, so looking at combining it with a 6 inch aluminum cone SB mid-woofer.