I always wanted A pair of B&W Matrix speakers, when I came across A pair of 803’s 1 st gen. For A good price I went for it.
My speakers where the Celestion ditton 33 where I put in new filter parts and cabeling. Nothing to exotic butt good quality.
The ditton’s sounded great, i thought the 803 should to better.
Although the 803’s sound verry balanced the lack in lifeness, detail and air.
I also replaced the capacitors, good quality MKP, didn’t do A lot.
I am disapointed, should I sell them or am I missing something?
New wiring? The wires are connected with quick connectors that I don’t like but will this make A difference?
Tryd another amplifier, Quad 606, el34 tube amp, sphinx project 12, sounds different but not yet at the level of my old Celestions.
Any tips?
Sorry for my writing, I it’s not my native language.
Greetings,
My speakers where the Celestion ditton 33 where I put in new filter parts and cabeling. Nothing to exotic butt good quality.
The ditton’s sounded great, i thought the 803 should to better.
Although the 803’s sound verry balanced the lack in lifeness, detail and air.
I also replaced the capacitors, good quality MKP, didn’t do A lot.
I am disapointed, should I sell them or am I missing something?
New wiring? The wires are connected with quick connectors that I don’t like but will this make A difference?
Tryd another amplifier, Quad 606, el34 tube amp, sphinx project 12, sounds different but not yet at the level of my old Celestions.
Any tips?
Sorry for my writing, I it’s not my native language.
Greetings,
Trinity should tell you to choose between the blue nad the tred pill, but we cab surely do better to help.
You can not move the caps for said better without few measurements. The marking on the former caps as they are lytics are not enough precision, plus they have drifted if old second hand enough if you measured it yourself before the swap.
Have you a mic and a soft like Arta for instance to measure the power response at your listening room ? Something to measure the impedance of the speaker and drivers like an Arta box or DVM that measure inductance or a Dayton measurement set (cheap) ?
You can also comeback with a drawing of your filter for the experienced people see if they can correct it by feeling. Wires and type of mkp brand and model comes only after all of that and is the few percent of diminishing return ihmo, important although but not the most.
you should also talk about amp and source and room dimension,...iirc the 803 makes a lot of bass and can hide the mid by a too much big bass presence...
You can not move the caps for said better without few measurements. The marking on the former caps as they are lytics are not enough precision, plus they have drifted if old second hand enough if you measured it yourself before the swap.
Have you a mic and a soft like Arta for instance to measure the power response at your listening room ? Something to measure the impedance of the speaker and drivers like an Arta box or DVM that measure inductance or a Dayton measurement set (cheap) ?
You can also comeback with a drawing of your filter for the experienced people see if they can correct it by feeling. Wires and type of mkp brand and model comes only after all of that and is the few percent of diminishing return ihmo, important although but not the most.
you should also talk about amp and source and room dimension,...iirc the 803 makes a lot of bass and can hide the mid by a too much big bass presence...
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/att...lacing-filters-matrix-803-a-matrix-803-tm-pdf
Hi, I replaced the capacitors with the exact value, replaced the Bennic capacitors with Claritycap CSA.
My system now is el34 amp push-pull diy, preamp Audio-note L2 design diy amp, NAD master series cd player, interlink diy Klotz MC5000 ( very good ), speakers cables Audioquest 33.
Did not change the fact, this is still the same electronics, only th3 speakets changed.
No, I don’t have any measuring system, the sound is balanced, high, low, mids, it’s sounds ok, only thing I am missing is the air and detail. Even my tiny Totem Dreamcatcher speakers do better.
I did put the link to the service manual in my post, I don’t know if this is the correct way to do this.
Grtz,
Hi, I replaced the capacitors with the exact value, replaced the Bennic capacitors with Claritycap CSA.
My system now is el34 amp push-pull diy, preamp Audio-note L2 design diy amp, NAD master series cd player, interlink diy Klotz MC5000 ( very good ), speakers cables Audioquest 33.
Did not change the fact, this is still the same electronics, only th3 speakets changed.
No, I don’t have any measuring system, the sound is balanced, high, low, mids, it’s sounds ok, only thing I am missing is the air and detail. Even my tiny Totem Dreamcatcher speakers do better.
I did put the link to the service manual in my post, I don’t know if this is the correct way to do this.
Grtz,
Assuming everything is alright with original drive units, it could be that these are not voiced in a way that you would appreciate it more, or perhaps you have made a mistake of some kind while performing modifications. It is a 2.5 way design with all of the drivers connected in phase.
Did you clean contact surfaces of the driver terminals and fast-on connectors?
Did you clean contact surfaces of the driver terminals and fast-on connectors?
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The Matrix speakers are said to respond best to high-power solid-state amplification.
What type of music do you listen to? I ask because, as Lojzek hints, the two speakers are voiced differently - the Matrix being said to be particularly suited to classical music.
Yes, maybe it’s just my kind off speaker, then I have a problem
My Celestion ditton 33 are sold.
There is something about A 70’s 3 way system I like I guess.
I will try one last thing next wekend on my 803’s, I will solder al connections instead of the AMP connectors, nothing like A good solder connection.
Maybe it will open up the sound when all connections are clean.
My Celestion ditton 33 are sold.
There is something about A 70’s 3 way system I like I guess.
I will try one last thing next wekend on my 803’s, I will solder al connections instead of the AMP connectors, nothing like A good solder connection.
Maybe it will open up the sound when all connections are clean.
I mainly listen to jazz and classic music, the 803’s should be great for this.
What I miss is... I don’t know if you know the music from Deedee Bridgewater, Live at Yoshi’s, man what A live ambiance, when they tap the tamboriens and then the double bass kiks in it gives me goose bumps.
But not with the 803’s.
What I miss is... I don’t know if you know the music from Deedee Bridgewater, Live at Yoshi’s, man what A live ambiance, when they tap the tamboriens and then the double bass kiks in it gives me goose bumps.
But not with the 803’s.
Soundstage measured a bunch of B&W speakers in the NRC anechoic chamber and the results, which are published on their site below, are not great. Many of their speakers have boomy bass, ragged frequency response, and poorly matched directivity on the mid/tweeter (a result of using a trendy oversized midrange and a top mounted tweeter). From the measurements it is clear that gimmickry and marketing are the priorities and sound quality is secondary.
SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com
SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com
I just looked up the manual for the B&W 803 Matrix:
B&W Group North America Service & Support - Home
It's a 2.5 way with 6-8" midbasses. Metal tweeter with ferrofluid.
Tweeter filter is 4.7uF/0.15/10uF
Upper Bass is 1.35mH/6uF seriesed to 8mH for the lower bass.
Different animal entirely from a Celestion 33 three way with a sophisticated crossover and a 4" mid which wiil have good dispersion and be fast:
HF2001 tweeter replacement
Celestion used polyamide tweeters which may have had that airiness you liked. Always quite lifted at the very top.
Only idea I have is you might take the ferrofluid out of the tweeter. Might clean up the top. Replaceable if the experiment fails:
Sonics by Joachim Gerhard cabinets and kits.
Sonitus Audio :: Sonitus Audio FF05 PS4.99 IN STOCK (4 May 2021)
B&W Group North America Service & Support - Home
It's a 2.5 way with 6-8" midbasses. Metal tweeter with ferrofluid.
Tweeter filter is 4.7uF/0.15/10uF
Upper Bass is 1.35mH/6uF seriesed to 8mH for the lower bass.
Different animal entirely from a Celestion 33 three way with a sophisticated crossover and a 4" mid which wiil have good dispersion and be fast:
HF2001 tweeter replacement
Celestion used polyamide tweeters which may have had that airiness you liked. Always quite lifted at the very top.
Only idea I have is you might take the ferrofluid out of the tweeter. Might clean up the top. Replaceable if the experiment fails:
Sonics by Joachim Gerhard cabinets and kits.
Sonitus Audio :: Sonitus Audio FF05 PS4.99 IN STOCK (4 May 2021)
didn't know the first gen was 2.5, but yes definitly looks like classic english 2.5Ways
B&W Matrix 803 Series 1 Speakers - Opinions? | Steve Hoffman Music Forums
@S7 : be carefull, the Sonitus looks like a Pfizer shoot !
What a strange look than this Celestion both mid and tweet off seted oposite direction !
B&W Matrix 803 Series 1 Speakers - Opinions? | Steve Hoffman Music Forums
@S7 : be carefull, the Sonitus looks like a Pfizer shoot !
What a strange look than this Celestion both mid and tweet off seted oposite direction !
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Thank you everyone for the replys.
First
Just ordred a small bottle of ferro fluid to replace the ferro fluid. The speakers are from 1991, that’s 20 years old. ( @ Speakerrepairshop.nl )
Maybe the tweeters need some attention.
Second
I will solder all wires on to the the speakers, the wiring is from “Van den Hul” in a good thickness.
Third
Check the capacitors that I replaced, make shure I did everything wright.
Maybe re-solder all filter parts do they give a perfect connection.
Clean the speaker connectors.
Forth
Connect another power amplifier.
If all this fails.
Then I just have to get me another pair of speakers.
The plan is to do this when the ferro fluid is delivred
I will keep hou guys posted.
First
Just ordred a small bottle of ferro fluid to replace the ferro fluid. The speakers are from 1991, that’s 20 years old. ( @ Speakerrepairshop.nl )
Maybe the tweeters need some attention.
Second
I will solder all wires on to the the speakers, the wiring is from “Van den Hul” in a good thickness.
Third
Check the capacitors that I replaced, make shure I did everything wright.
Maybe re-solder all filter parts do they give a perfect connection.
Clean the speaker connectors.
Forth
Connect another power amplifier.
If all this fails.
Then I just have to get me another pair of speakers.
The plan is to do this when the ferro fluid is delivred
I will keep hou guys posted.
The 803s are decent speakers. They just need the right amplification and can really benefit from replacing the xover caps, specifically the nasty mylar caps and secondly the larger electrolytics. Just use PP film in place of mylar and good lytics (mundorfs are nice) in place of the old like ones. Ive never had an issue swapping the xover parts without taking measurements, although I do it anyways never finding worthwhile discrepancies. Any changes have always been for the better. The ferrofluid drying up is a definite issue and can cause the symptoms you explained. I know there's a lot of hate for b&w speakers on here, but the higher end stuff can sound fantastic with a bit of care and work. Good solid state amplification is an absolute must with these speakers. They dont come to life with most wimpy, low damping factor amps.
Hi,
I disagree about what you say about mylar caps (MKT). For many reasons.
It's not as easy one raw spec are saying, you have to consider the layout of the loudspeaker you're talking about. For some reason a lythic can be good enough if not better than a metalized polypro... in the gap, for some reason and in some cases, the mylar are what you need in the final sounding optimazation. Some rare manufacterers have enough times and money to test POC and not save few bucks for a mylar over a MKP and vis(ce) versa !
It's a myth imho in high end speaker when one beleive there is mylar over a polypro for cost reasons...
I can myself mix a MKT with a MKP at iso capacitanc even if I know ESR isd a mismatch, but if in the trade off the Ella Fittzgerald voice has the good weight and thickness I'm looking for in relation to what the amp and the source give, I'm ok with that : it's a whole and it's diy. Sometimes a good lythic smooth foill have better esr at high frequency than a mylar, so it's something than can help according the needs you may have in a particular layout/drivers/loudspeakers.
At least it seems to me so after refurbishing many enough loudspeakers for friends and for frieznds of friends alas ! - and few for myself as well I spent many hours-
I disagree about what you say about mylar caps (MKT). For many reasons.
It's not as easy one raw spec are saying, you have to consider the layout of the loudspeaker you're talking about. For some reason a lythic can be good enough if not better than a metalized polypro... in the gap, for some reason and in some cases, the mylar are what you need in the final sounding optimazation. Some rare manufacterers have enough times and money to test POC and not save few bucks for a mylar over a MKP and vis(ce) versa !
It's a myth imho in high end speaker when one beleive there is mylar over a polypro for cost reasons...
I can myself mix a MKT with a MKP at iso capacitanc even if I know ESR isd a mismatch, but if in the trade off the Ella Fittzgerald voice has the good weight and thickness I'm looking for in relation to what the amp and the source give, I'm ok with that : it's a whole and it's diy. Sometimes a good lythic smooth foill have better esr at high frequency than a mylar, so it's something than can help according the needs you may have in a particular layout/drivers/loudspeakers.
At least it seems to me so after refurbishing many enough loudspeakers for friends and for frieznds of friends alas ! - and few for myself as well I spent many hours-
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I used to think mylar (MKT) sounded pretty much the same as any other film cap. That was until I worked on someone's dynaco a25 clones. They had pretty decent mylar HP caps and the owner wanted to upgrade to film/foil PP. I could hear a distinct difference in the high end just from the cap change alone (all the original wiring remained untouched). That experience encouraged me to experiment and today I keep on getting similar results when i rebuild crossovers. If a mylar cap is in series in a HP circuit, it gets replaced with PP or better.
Mylar used in a crossover HP simply sounds worse to my ears, especially if its in series feeding a decent HF driver. MKTs are generally cheaper and you typically won't find them in higher end designs for a good reason, unless the manufacturer specifically wants to exploit its characteristics to blend with another component. I can hear the difference between a solen fast cap PP, yellow bennic PP and clarity cap csa PP if its used in a HP series circuit. Every mylar I've heard in that setting sounds grainy, glarry and rough.
I've A/B tested several HP caps on a cheap set of 2 ways with Vifa D27TG45 tweeters, which aren't all that revealing or exotic. I had the caps on a relay switching setup controlled from the listening position. Other people listened as well and a few could point out the exact cap in use from the sonic signature when blindly selecting bewteen the caps. It was an eye opener for me.
Also in amplifier and lower current audio signal applications the same holds true that PP will almost always excel over mylar in overall sonics. Even a decent NP electrolytic can sound better than MKT. The greater the voltage swing across the cap, the more it will highlight the difference. Mylar is an inferior dielectric to PP, PPS, teflon and PIO - the only thing worse is cheap electrolytic and ceramic. Odd order harmonics tend to measure better with PP, which is likely the culprit in hearing the difference. There are other things which make a capacitor worse like the use of magnetic leads instead of tinned copper, etc, but in general, a cheap MKT will always sound worse mainly due to its dielectric.
Mylar used in a crossover HP simply sounds worse to my ears, especially if its in series feeding a decent HF driver. MKTs are generally cheaper and you typically won't find them in higher end designs for a good reason, unless the manufacturer specifically wants to exploit its characteristics to blend with another component. I can hear the difference between a solen fast cap PP, yellow bennic PP and clarity cap csa PP if its used in a HP series circuit. Every mylar I've heard in that setting sounds grainy, glarry and rough.
I've A/B tested several HP caps on a cheap set of 2 ways with Vifa D27TG45 tweeters, which aren't all that revealing or exotic. I had the caps on a relay switching setup controlled from the listening position. Other people listened as well and a few could point out the exact cap in use from the sonic signature when blindly selecting bewteen the caps. It was an eye opener for me.
Also in amplifier and lower current audio signal applications the same holds true that PP will almost always excel over mylar in overall sonics. Even a decent NP electrolytic can sound better than MKT. The greater the voltage swing across the cap, the more it will highlight the difference. Mylar is an inferior dielectric to PP, PPS, teflon and PIO - the only thing worse is cheap electrolytic and ceramic. Odd order harmonics tend to measure better with PP, which is likely the culprit in hearing the difference. There are other things which make a capacitor worse like the use of magnetic leads instead of tinned copper, etc, but in general, a cheap MKT will always sound worse mainly due to its dielectric.
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