Ears are very good measuring devices, IF you use the proper protocol.
Better objective measurements (measuring with equipment) don't guarantee better subjective measurements (measuring with ears).
Imo, ears are the ONLY valid measuring tools, because that's what we hear with.
Measure nearfield in a room, then measure near field outside a room. Big difference in bass response.
Understanding and applying are 2 different things.
Most pro music people are not experts in scientific listening tests.
- They guarantee better objective and subjective results (intended results after work has been done) for mastering engineers. As a mastering engineer I need to make judgments regarding tone and dynamics and adjust the signal accordingly...I only care about what the signal really sounds like...I have no intention of making the signal sound better than it really does, by the means of lying with a speaker. Long story short, its proven that a system with an awesome IR is the one a mastering engineer wants to work on. How good is good enough? The mastering Engineering crowd favor sealed...Large amount of people have jumped on the MTM or WMTMW as well.
How much mastering work have you done?
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You might want to ask your other half about this
Everything is compromise.. even the Veyron is, try going on holiday with it with 3 kids..
It's just about making the right compromise. I think this topic is more about what kind of compromise options there are and what kind of effect they will have (correct me if I'm wong). Along the way possibly find some new truths, shatter some old ones..
I'm not sure this is what was meant: You could have system A that is objectively better measuring than system B, but in an extensive double blind test, no-one can keep them apart. For you as a mastering engineer, would not system B be just as good as System A? Obviously, this is all very academic, specially since the two systems will probably have different compromises.. But look at it as a thought experiment.
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No they don't.
If you haven't published multiple papers about perceptual testing in peer reviewed scientific papers, your not an expert on listening tests.
Why would I, as a skeptical person, listen to the opinion of non experts?
I'd rather listen to all the real experts, Mr Geddes is one such person in this field and post here regularly. Olive, Toole and others post on other forums, ( I) listen to what they say.
I say this in the most respectful way. They are not a mastering engineers. What the Mastering and Mix engineer do with the signal, triumphs everything that comes after. Loudspeaker designers can take that mastered signal and design several different loudspeaker systems and it will sound good. Thats a skill that comes from years and years of experience but the engineering of the record comes first. Remember that "crap in crap out" motto? Well a crap engineered recording sounds like crap on all systems. Talent/skill/experience is all apart of the equation but the other part is hearing the signal....the actual signal....as literally as possible. You cannot adjust accurately what you can't hear correctly. If I didn't say it clearly enough. Mastering Engineers play a more important role than the average Loudspeaker designer. The only person more important, are people who design loud speaker systems for Mastering engineers. Now, who fits that bill and what do they say?
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@Bill Coltrane:
If you listened what Geddes, Olive and Toole have to say, then you'd be in agreement with Camplo. Everyone should be very careful when interpreting what Geddes, Olive and Toole write. If they were 100% right, everyone would have Infinity/JBL/Revel/Gedlee loudspeaker in their house - but we don't. Please, do read this:
Blind Listening Letters | Stereophile.com
Greg Timbers had something to say about Harman (read Toole and Olive methodology):
"I have no use for blind and double blind listening tests the way Harman implements them. Sound systems and their environments are very complicated. No speaker is even close to sounding "real" so personal opinion is always a major consideration. Most blind tests are based on a series of assumptions that enable the test to be easy or practical to implement. Unfortunately, these assumptions often invalidate or color the results because they cover up or accentuate aspects of the loudspeaker design."
Greg Timbers
If you listened what Geddes, Olive and Toole have to say, then you'd be in agreement with Camplo. Everyone should be very careful when interpreting what Geddes, Olive and Toole write. If they were 100% right, everyone would have Infinity/JBL/Revel/Gedlee loudspeaker in their house - but we don't. Please, do read this:
Blind Listening Letters | Stereophile.com
Greg Timbers had something to say about Harman (read Toole and Olive methodology):
"I have no use for blind and double blind listening tests the way Harman implements them. Sound systems and their environments are very complicated. No speaker is even close to sounding "real" so personal opinion is always a major consideration. Most blind tests are based on a series of assumptions that enable the test to be easy or practical to implement. Unfortunately, these assumptions often invalidate or color the results because they cover up or accentuate aspects of the loudspeaker design."
Greg Timbers
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Well isn't that news. Erring towards objective quality vs subjective. I've studied more Geddes than any other big name...wait, I liked JMLC too...its funny cause they didn't agree on everything. And yes, everyone should have Infinity/JBL/Revel/Gedlee/Camplo loudspeakers in their house....at least 5
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^ This is an objective point of view! Camplo
Humbledeer: i've heard some very good ported design too ( and used in mastering room around France/Belgium/ Deutschland). I decided not to advertise publicly on the guy ( he is an 'artisan') as he have dodgy commercial practice ( well he had on me and some friend of mine) and a bad attitude ( Guru driven attitude), but i wonder if you don't use his gear? Even if we haven't already exchanged too (on a now defunct french forum dedicated to pro gear. Are you located in a nice old House around Brussel suburbs by chance?).
Bill Coltrane: from your message it seems to me you are a 'subjectivist' ( but i may be wrong) and you agree only to what the 'objectivist' publish.
It is an interesting position. And i don't try to tease you. I really find your position interesting in that it isn't usual from a 'subjectivist'.
Humbledeer: i've heard some very good ported design too ( and used in mastering room around France/Belgium/ Deutschland). I decided not to advertise publicly on the guy ( he is an 'artisan') as he have dodgy commercial practice ( well he had on me and some friend of mine) and a bad attitude ( Guru driven attitude), but i wonder if you don't use his gear? Even if we haven't already exchanged too (on a now defunct french forum dedicated to pro gear. Are you located in a nice old House around Brussel suburbs by chance?).
Bill Coltrane: from your message it seems to me you are a 'subjectivist' ( but i may be wrong) and you agree only to what the 'objectivist' publish.
It is an interesting position. And i don't try to tease you. I really find your position interesting in that it isn't usual from a 'subjectivist'.
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My point (and what i believe Greg Timbers was trying to say) is that objective quality can exist without subjective quality but not vice versa.
Let's agree to disagree then.
What is Camplo speaker ?
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^ This is an objective point of view! Camplo
Humbledeer: i've heard some very good ported design too ( and used in mastering room around France/Belgium/ Deutschland). I decided not to advertise publicly on the guy ( he is an 'artisan') as he have dodgy commercial practice ( well he had on me and some friend of mine) and a bad attitude ( Guru driven attitude), but i wonder if you don't use his gear? Even if we haven't already exchanged too (on a now defunct french forum dedicated to pro gear. Are you located in a nice old House around Brussel suburbs by chance?).
I'm probably too young to know who you are talking about. I live in Bruges, in a small apartment style house. My speakers aren't his, obviously. My monitors are Jeff Bagby's Tango's in a slot ported box (This here and This on PE.) There's images of my design(-tweak) all over the internet. [Edit: I was 15; bear that in mind when you read the posts.]
My subwoofers consist of a transmission line in my casual listening environment, a sealed sub currently due to space restraints, and a ported sub with the same driver that's not currently in use. The ported box goes down to 17Hz, but is high passes before that to absolutely maintain box loading and driver loading.
A speaker with a DSP ain't too half bad. And for a long time I didn't know too much about the technicalities behind it and I don't master music any better now that I have more to worry about.
I don't follow. Language barrier probably, sorry.
I know and i was waiting for you to say that
I'll never believe that Camplo speaker exist without pics
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