The original passage Allen quoted was...
Remember the Klipsh speakers designed to be in corners, the little Heresy speakers designed to be part of the furniture, even JBL's legendary L-100s were designed to be close to the wall. Also note that quite a few speakers back then had L-Pads for the mid and tweeter so you could adjust them without tearing them apart.
I did not say anechoic chambers are bad. I was lamenting the way speakers changed from being part of the furniture to taking over the whole room and pointing out how they changed when that partition was no longer used in test chambers and it was disingenuous of Allen to suggest otherwise.
hello krivium.
forgive if I don't quote your answers, I'm using my smartphone and I can't manage all the answers.
glad you are a reasonable person.
you are the first reasonable PRO I meet.
Maybe you are a new generation PRO?
I don't think maybe you are an elderly PRO, the new generations repeat things learned by heart without having experience or understanding the meaning of what they say and with them there is no possibility to reason.
precisely define the PRO sector I understand the border but the problem is your interlocutor who says he is a PRO and only he knows the truth.
returning to the general sense of reasoning, we agree it seems to me.
I am always available when there is reasonableness in people.
For the use of pro equipment, it depends on what you want to do, and I am well aware.
I can tell you that I have Bryston amps and I wouldn't change them for any other amp, maybe another Bryston
)
Regard acoustic treatment,
I am aware of the need for acoustic treatment, which is why I chose a speaker designed for bare room or almost,
in reference to your last quoted speech,
we have a misunderstanding, I was referring to the method by which to deal with things.
forgive if I don't quote your answers, I'm using my smartphone and I can't manage all the answers.
glad you are a reasonable person.
you are the first reasonable PRO I meet.
Maybe you are a new generation PRO?
I don't think maybe you are an elderly PRO, the new generations repeat things learned by heart without having experience or understanding the meaning of what they say and with them there is no possibility to reason.
precisely define the PRO sector I understand the border but the problem is your interlocutor who says he is a PRO and only he knows the truth.
returning to the general sense of reasoning, we agree it seems to me.
I am always available when there is reasonableness in people.
For the use of pro equipment, it depends on what you want to do, and I am well aware.
I can tell you that I have Bryston amps and I wouldn't change them for any other amp, maybe another Bryston
)Regard acoustic treatment,
I am aware of the need for acoustic treatment, which is why I chose a speaker designed for bare room or almost,
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
in reference to your last quoted speech,
we have a misunderstanding, I was referring to the method by which to deal with things.
valtergio, Bryston is also used in the pro world
I know.
I said on purpose that I have Bryston amps.
maybe you didn't understand the meaning of my words.
because of my bad english.
You seem to be saying that a speaker that is designed to be against a wall, should have said wall accompanying it in the anechoic chamber, and I doubt I'd be disagreeing with that..
Allen ... they did have that until about the late-1980s, in many cases.
That is what I was telling you before .... when the wall vanished from the test chamber, things changed drastically. Go back, re-read what I wrote, this time without trying to find disagreement... you'll see.
I don't recall disagreeing
You made it seem like I said Anechoic chambers were a bad thing then you proceeded to tell me they were a good thing.
I'm pretty sure that qualifies as manufacturing disagreement.
Hi Valtergio,
To have a stepback and trying to be openminded help a lot to be reasonable.
I fear you are abit severe with pro. We have a lot of good example in there ( and i don't include myself in this), some members are or were audio engineer and from what i've read of them most are highly competent and open minded ( even if i don't agree with all pov).
I'm not a 'millenial' neither an ex 'beatnick/ hippie', i'm in between them: son of one and could be father of the other well, let say i'm a punk! ( but i'm a late bloomer so my children are 5 yo and 6 month old, those are the next gen!).
What matter to me is that we all love music ( whatever it is) and learn from others.
I'm sorry for my poor english too, it's always frustrating to have language barrier, my point was about empathy in general and not dedicated to you specifically.
To have a stepback and trying to be openminded help a lot to be reasonable.
I fear you are abit severe with pro. We have a lot of good example in there ( and i don't include myself in this), some members are or were audio engineer and from what i've read of them most are highly competent and open minded ( even if i don't agree with all pov).
I'm not a 'millenial' neither an ex 'beatnick/ hippie', i'm in between them: son of one and could be father of the other well, let say i'm a punk! ( but i'm a late bloomer so my children are 5 yo and 6 month old, those are the next gen!).
What matter to me is that we all love music ( whatever it is) and learn from others.
I'm sorry for my poor english too, it's always frustrating to have language barrier, my point was about empathy in general and not dedicated to you specifically.
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All very interesting.... but.
If someone should be in doubt about how most theories work, then they properly have not tried it out or did not understand what they where doing - sorry, but that is simply my experience.
I have tried all those blind-tests, amplifiers, DAC's, speakers, DSP's, players, cables, measurements and what ever you could ever imagine. And reading everything i can find from Toole, Geddes, Olive, Lenard, Winer... etc. just made me understand more and more, that there really is no perfect solution, but rather a pretty good middle road, that most people can actually agree on, especially if you remove the name, pricetag and looks.
I tried the "solution" to max out a DSP to tame the "horrible" curve that I saw in the listening position. We tried everything from the cheapest DSP from mini-dsp or behringer to the most fanzy one from DEQX with FIR and what not. Funny note - the DEQX uses the same DSP as behringer
It made no difference - all sounded wrong or sometimes just bad. At that time we dit not understand that technology cant and will never be able to split up reflections and direct sound, when they exist in the same period of time. Maybe in one little single point... but that point is smaller than our heads... aaaand only in ONE point and not TWO - our ears... so out goes that theory - cause we never made it work - no matter how hard we tried, it simply sounded dull or lifeless, which made really good sense, when you understood what the DSP was actually doing. It was simply smoothing out everything - and in the process it killed everything that had any potential to begin with. And we are talking fully active speakers here, with some of the best drivers from Accuton, SB, SS, Seas and the like.
Then we started to home in on the theory from Toole and started doing measurements with gating, since we did not have the space or facilities to do anchoic measurements. Right away everything got a whole lot better. The difference between some of the best speakers we ever heard and what we could achieve at home with our DIY build - suddenly got very small.
Room-curves.... well. I might be rather simple to explain. When you mix music, you sit close to the speaker, in the nearfield. And when you listen to music you sit farther away. Higher frequencies fall off quicker than lower ones, so when people measure in the listening position, they have to create an artificial one. When I measure my speakers and correct them with a DSP - only linear distortion is corrected - then I measure them within 1-1,5m distance. When I try to measure them afterwards in the listening position, they have that downward slope - room curve if you will - that so many are talking about.
Talking about bass - that's a totally different beast. You are listening to a chaos of reflections.... also refered to as steady state. So here you can feel much more free to correct the FR with a typical DSP. But again - the quality of the measurements, will be much more important than the quality of the equipment or fancy claims from any brand or technology in the world.
Amplifiers - damn..... how can a problem be made out of such a well known and proven technology Class-D when porely made, can have all kinds of problems - ecspecially in the high frequencies, cause of the filter that tries to remove the swithing noise. But regular amplifiers tend to work very well - if not done really bad. Me and some friends tried to switch between a Behringer EP4000 and some mono-blocks from Dan D'Agostino - pulling a set of Magico Q7. We heard maybe a tiny little difference.... but nothing worth the money. And why sell your house to be able to buy an amplifier that simply looks different and has a big worthless meter-thingy in the front that tells you aboslutely nothing of importance?
It does look nice, it works well..... but the price... pheew!
One might measure better than the other - but not something that stood out in real life. Same goes for speakers. You gotta understand what can be measured and also heard - or measured and never heard.
As a last note. Some people do hear certain types of distortion more clearly than others. Of course we are different. Also when you get older, you tend to change your preference towards a different FR slope - maybe because of the hearing loss and also simply because we prefer different music.
But that does not change anything about the fact, that the off-axis bahavior of the speaker, needs to be looked at very seriously... and most DIYs and famous brands - do not care about this.
If someone should be in doubt about how most theories work, then they properly have not tried it out or did not understand what they where doing - sorry, but that is simply my experience.
I have tried all those blind-tests, amplifiers, DAC's, speakers, DSP's, players, cables, measurements and what ever you could ever imagine. And reading everything i can find from Toole, Geddes, Olive, Lenard, Winer... etc. just made me understand more and more, that there really is no perfect solution, but rather a pretty good middle road, that most people can actually agree on, especially if you remove the name, pricetag and looks.
I tried the "solution" to max out a DSP to tame the "horrible" curve that I saw in the listening position. We tried everything from the cheapest DSP from mini-dsp or behringer to the most fanzy one from DEQX with FIR and what not. Funny note - the DEQX uses the same DSP as behringer
It made no difference - all sounded wrong or sometimes just bad. At that time we dit not understand that technology cant and will never be able to split up reflections and direct sound, when they exist in the same period of time. Maybe in one little single point... but that point is smaller than our heads... aaaand only in ONE point and not TWO - our ears... so out goes that theory - cause we never made it work - no matter how hard we tried, it simply sounded dull or lifeless, which made really good sense, when you understood what the DSP was actually doing. It was simply smoothing out everything - and in the process it killed everything that had any potential to begin with. And we are talking fully active speakers here, with some of the best drivers from Accuton, SB, SS, Seas and the like.
Then we started to home in on the theory from Toole and started doing measurements with gating, since we did not have the space or facilities to do anchoic measurements. Right away everything got a whole lot better. The difference between some of the best speakers we ever heard and what we could achieve at home with our DIY build - suddenly got very small.
Room-curves.... well. I might be rather simple to explain. When you mix music, you sit close to the speaker, in the nearfield. And when you listen to music you sit farther away. Higher frequencies fall off quicker than lower ones, so when people measure in the listening position, they have to create an artificial one. When I measure my speakers and correct them with a DSP - only linear distortion is corrected - then I measure them within 1-1,5m distance. When I try to measure them afterwards in the listening position, they have that downward slope - room curve if you will - that so many are talking about.
Talking about bass - that's a totally different beast. You are listening to a chaos of reflections.... also refered to as steady state. So here you can feel much more free to correct the FR with a typical DSP. But again - the quality of the measurements, will be much more important than the quality of the equipment or fancy claims from any brand or technology in the world.
Amplifiers - damn..... how can a problem be made out of such a well known and proven technology
Class-D when porely made, can have all kinds of problems - ecspecially in the high frequencies, cause of the filter that tries to remove the swithing noise. But regular amplifiers tend to work very well - if not done really bad. Me and some friends tried to switch between a Behringer EP4000 and some mono-blocks from Dan D'Agostino - pulling a set of Magico Q7. We heard maybe a tiny little difference.... but nothing worth the money. And why sell your house to be able to buy an amplifier that simply looks different and has a big worthless meter-thingy in the front that tells you aboslutely nothing of importance?It does look nice, it works well..... but the price... pheew!
One might measure better than the other - but not something that stood out in real life. Same goes for speakers. You gotta understand what can be measured and also heard - or measured and never heard.
As a last note. Some people do hear certain types of distortion more clearly than others. Of course we are different. Also when you get older, you tend to change your preference towards a different FR slope - maybe because of the hearing loss and also simply because we prefer different music.
But that does not change anything about the fact, that the off-axis bahavior of the speaker, needs to be looked at very seriously... and most DIYs and famous brands - do not care about this.
Your English is not bad, dialog with only text is easily misunderstood.
I listened a lot to various RCF pro series, they are excellent when there's no self educated guy with pony tail behind the mixer
I'm sure at least one thing I said has been misunderstood.
my negative opinion is when a pro speaker is inserted in a room of the apartment.
recording studio monitors are also positioned attached to the wall.
this has 2 problems for me, first, I don't put my speakers attached to the wall because I want to hear 3D, and when a speaker is attached to the wall it produces a gigantic reflection, I don't like it.
If a speaker is designed to sound attached to the wall if you put it at a distance its frequency response changes, do you remember the Allison commercial?
I don't remember the model .. The advertisement said that an Allison speaker will not have an unbalanced response on the bass because it was designed to be in that position.
So, in my opinion, if you don't want to have surprises, it is essential to choose a speaker designed to be used in the same conditions that you will have in your home.
To my knowledge .. PRO speakers are not designed for your home.
Hi Krivium.
If you happen to be in Florence, I'd like to meet you and listen to some good music, you won't be disappointed, guaranteed.
I am very demanding.
Best regards
Valtergio,
Grazzie mille! If i travel to Florence ( such a nice city you live in) i'll be pleased to meet you! Beware this could happen...but not in a soon future.
Keep yourself and your family safe in this troubled times we live.
Best regards.
it was a bad time.
be careful too you and family.
I will be very happy to meet you.
Best regards
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