If the work has been put in to engineer the crossover and EQ correctly, the result will be significantly the same.
Thank you all for the education on this issue.
I think for me the decision comes down to these advantages to both systems.
The main advantage to a standard crossover I see is the ability to use the speaker on any amp. integrated, receiver and move the speakers without moving the electronics. actually if I build new speakers this would be an important consideration . (An uncluttered living room is important for marital bliss. ) I spend considerably more time in the living room than I do in the music room.
The advantage of the minidsp lets me build a mtm tmm tm mt, change drivers even add drivers and make a 3 way then decide which is best without having to change the crossover and purchase the parts over and over. It also sounds like I could lessen room modes to improve the sound at the listening position. It sounds like I could even try different fr curves to find the one we like the best. trying things like a bbc curve, baffle step compensation. treble rolloff. are all possible. Once that is known maybe then build a conventional crossover to match.
I wonder if the audio out jacks on a standard av receiver (for a vcr) would work as audio in on the minidsp. that would make moving the speakers to the living room easier.
does the minidsp have any control on the impedance?
I think what I will do is build new boxes with interchangeable baffles and try the tm mtm and tmm with my current crossover and the parts I have on hand. Then if I have to redo the crossover in any meaningful way like add a 2.5mh coil. I will probably buy the minidsp.
thanks again everyone, sorry for rambling you have given me a lot to think about.
Ben
I think for me the decision comes down to these advantages to both systems.
The main advantage to a standard crossover I see is the ability to use the speaker on any amp. integrated, receiver and move the speakers without moving the electronics. actually if I build new speakers this would be an important consideration . (An uncluttered living room is important for marital bliss. ) I spend considerably more time in the living room than I do in the music room.
The advantage of the minidsp lets me build a mtm tmm tm mt, change drivers even add drivers and make a 3 way then decide which is best without having to change the crossover and purchase the parts over and over. It also sounds like I could lessen room modes to improve the sound at the listening position. It sounds like I could even try different fr curves to find the one we like the best. trying things like a bbc curve, baffle step compensation. treble rolloff. are all possible. Once that is known maybe then build a conventional crossover to match.
I wonder if the audio out jacks on a standard av receiver (for a vcr) would work as audio in on the minidsp. that would make moving the speakers to the living room easier.
does the minidsp have any control on the impedance?
Would that be caused by not using powerful enough amplifiers or lower efficiency speakers?
I think what I will do is build new boxes with interchangeable baffles and try the tm mtm and tmm with my current crossover and the parts I have on hand. Then if I have to redo the crossover in any meaningful way like add a 2.5mh coil. I will probably buy the minidsp.
thanks again everyone, sorry for rambling you have given me a lot to think about.
Ben
The voltages will be correct, but depending on your receiver and the jacks we are talking about you may lack the volume control. For instance, a tape loop bypasses the volume control.
No, but that's the beauty of it.
Passive crossover designers have to care about the driver impedance to make sure the parts we select behave as we expect. If we don't, our crossover points won't be where we think they should be, or the slope won't be right. Active crossovers don't care. So long as you have an amplifier with a low enough output impedance (damping factor > 100) this works out perfectly. If your amp has a high output impedance you can compensate for it with EQ in the miniDSP. So either way you are set.
Had the same idea but with 2x4HD mostly because people complaining about noise from regular miniDSP. As amplification something like 2ch amp from ICE, Hypex or similar - I think noise is the biggest problem with active ldspkrs. After seeing my friends system I really would like to try DSP as it gives so much flexibility with designing proper crossover and time aligning drivers.
the time alignment is certainly another interesting aspect. I have thought about physically doing it many times. but seeing the impact of the cabinet edge has on the tweeter FR always made me shy away from sticking the woofer way out in front especially in a mtm. I think I am going to save my pennies up and look hard at the HD version.
There really is no downside. One might consider the additional cost of another amp a downside but watts have never been cheaper. My Minidsp has been up and running for 2 years. I mainly listen to Spotify premium, .wav files from a hard drive and CD's. Plenty of output and no noise. My brother has a newer 4x10 HD and that thing does make some weird noises occasionally. Not from the speakers but from the unit itself. Cycling the power shuts it up.
I have some class D amps I bought from a member 7 years ago that I have not hooked up yet so I will have to get a power supply but the amp part will not cost to much. We just have to catch up a little and I would like to build new cabinets then see how close my current crossover is then make the decision. I am actually thinking about putting the conventional crossover in if it is pretty close and add a second set of binding post with a cap on the tweeter. Then the speaker will work well with the receiver or with the integrated amp upstairs and be exceptional in the music room with the pair of amps downstairs.
You would need to cascade two of them, but that would certainly give you a three-way crossover. The 4X10 HD would be better though, as it would eliminate the extra D/A -> A/D interface.
To answer your questions about not enough gain. Yes, low efficiency speakers make it much more of an issue. Output power is irrelevant though, however the gain provided by the amp is very relevant (gain is not related to maximum output power). Some amps list the gain in specs, sometimes its hard to find.
The miniDSP can definitely be used with one input driving all outputs (1x3 or 1x4). The only down side is that you need one miniDSP for each three way speaker. That’s exactly the configuration I’m building currently, and it works well.
No, you wouldn't cascade them. You'd use one for each channel as mentioned by Wembley.
Cascading would create a relative latency situation in addition to the unneeded ADC/DAC conversions.
Dave.
If you get the 2 way advanced plugin it's actually 2 bandpass filters per channel. So, yes you would need a pair of MiniDSP's for a pair of 3 or 4 way speakers. I was using one 2x4 in a three way pair and I just had a cap and coil on the tweeters and the MiniDSP on the mids and woofers and that worked for me for a couple of years but I just purchased a new amp and another MiniDSP so I can explore some 4 way designs.
thank you all very much.
the cap and coil on the tweeter makes sense you need a cap anyway to protect the speaker,
Is it possible to use the minidsp with a av receiver without a preout and main in and still have the av source selection and volume control work? even if the dsp and amps are internal to the speaker? I can not see how to do it.
thank you cspieker I will look into the gain on the amps I did not know that was even a thing.
to help decide between two and three way.
I have an question that I think will be obvious to someone who knows the answer. Is it possible to use two similar but different woofers for a 2 1/2 way speaker. one is metal one paper.Will the shared frequencies be screwed up?
thank you
the cap and coil on the tweeter makes sense you need a cap anyway to protect the speaker,
Is it possible to use the minidsp with a av receiver without a preout and main in and still have the av source selection and volume control work? even if the dsp and amps are internal to the speaker? I can not see how to do it.
thank you cspieker I will look into the gain on the amps I did not know that was even a thing.
to help decide between two and three way.
I have an question that I think will be obvious to someone who knows the answer. Is it possible to use two similar but different woofers for a 2 1/2 way speaker. one is metal one paper.Will the shared frequencies be screwed up?
thank you
Sure. If the sensitivity of the speaker that will produce the midrange is equal to or greater then the woofer only driver, then the compensation will be at or less than 6dB.
I did some 'back of an envelope' calculations and for small amounts of difference it appears to be dB=6-(Δ/2)
It depends on your source material. I've moved entirely to digital (CDs and streaming) and in this case I use the minidsp as the "preamp." We do also have a gramofon (for Spotify backup) that is analog, and it can accept this too. I used a 4x10HD, FWIW, and I like it a lot.
Now if you want to use vinyl or other analog source, yes, you have to get the signal out of the receiver somehow.
Hi it is a question of WAF. My wife asked for a unit that would play albums,cd and tuner. She wanted something neat and compact. I narrowly pulled something by Crosley out of the Amazon cart. I started down the path of building a console but ended up with a corner equipment rack and \I build some trapazoid mar-ken full range speakers that will slide under the wings of the cabinet. I bought a yamaha receiver and met all of the design requirements with the addition of adding a superzero for a center channel it also added bluray and satellite. The full range speakers are amazing for $85 each but they are not the modified Thor speakers in the basement.
I spend 95% more time listening to the speakers upstairs because they are upstairs. We rarely go down to basement to listen so I would like to build speakers that are small enough to move upstairs. I really would like to use the minidsp but have to figure out how to make the whole thing blend. I now have the Mar-kens on stands that hold albums so now the speakers and stands are basically 12x12x34 so I am thinking I can build a 8x12x38 inch speaker and presto chango get the modified Thors upstairs. I would like to use the dsp but have to figure out how to get the yamaha to drive the speakers. I dont mind using class d amps but maybe cheaper to use the conventional crossover when they are upstairs and the dsp unit when down. that is why I am asking about the receiver. sorry fo the TMI
Ben
I spend 95% more time listening to the speakers upstairs because they are upstairs. We rarely go down to basement to listen so I would like to build speakers that are small enough to move upstairs. I really would like to use the minidsp but have to figure out how to make the whole thing blend. I now have the Mar-kens on stands that hold albums so now the speakers and stands are basically 12x12x34 so I am thinking I can build a 8x12x38 inch speaker and presto chango get the modified Thors upstairs. I would like to use the dsp but have to figure out how to get the yamaha to drive the speakers. I dont mind using class d amps but maybe cheaper to use the conventional crossover when they are upstairs and the dsp unit when down. that is why I am asking about the receiver. sorry fo the TMI
Ben