Hi all,
Have just bought a pair of these on ebay, tempted I must say by the potential of a low x-o freq. (specs mention 100W handling with 12db x-o at 1kHz), though I appreciate a supertweet is required for above ~13kHz. Can't find a DIY design that uses these - anyone any experience/comments?
Thanks
Ian
Have just bought a pair of these on ebay, tempted I must say by the potential of a low x-o freq. (specs mention 100W handling with 12db x-o at 1kHz), though I appreciate a supertweet is required for above ~13kHz. Can't find a DIY design that uses these - anyone any experience/comments?
Thanks
Ian
Sorry it's not my 
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm - it's Troels Gravesen's website
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm - it's Troels Gravesen's website
Hey Grant,
the D3806 is a great driver - one of the best out there.
Scan Speak seem to know it, considering how much they charge for it!
The Seas 27TDFC is also a very good tweeter. Probably not many other dome tweets that can touch it.
Yes, I know both drivers.
But John B is the really the one to ask, he has used them both in many designs. He may chime in on the subject later today or tomorrow.
the D3806 is a great driver - one of the best out there.
Scan Speak seem to know it, considering how much they charge for it!
The Seas 27TDFC is also a very good tweeter. Probably not many other dome tweets that can touch it.
Yes, I know both drivers.
But John B is the really the one to ask, he has used them both in many designs. He may chime in on the subject later today or tomorrow.
Hi Pano,
I just re- searched, and indeed it was your favourable comments on the D3806 in a 2-way with up to an ( unbelievably huge ) 18" woofer that appeals to me. The Scanspeak is available here, but I might get a real shock when I find out how much $'s they want. Comparing the two tweeters, I think for me the D3806 solution with an overall better midrange would be preferable to the Manzanita, although very good no doubt, might have a xo dip.
Yes it would be great if your friend John B drops by with his impressions. ( John B sounds like a 'sloop'..haha, no offence, you know , the Beach Boys song)
Michail,
Oops, I was referring to your personal homepage website that is of course in Russian.
paging IanJ,
I see you were online last October, so maybe you would also like to describe your D3806 project please? thanks, grant
I just re- searched, and indeed it was your favourable comments on the D3806 in a 2-way with up to an ( unbelievably huge ) 18" woofer that appeals to me. The Scanspeak is available here, but I might get a real shock when I find out how much $'s they want. Comparing the two tweeters, I think for me the D3806 solution with an overall better midrange would be preferable to the Manzanita, although very good no doubt, might have a xo dip.
Yes it would be great if your friend John B drops by with his impressions. ( John B sounds like a 'sloop'..haha, no offence, you know , the Beach Boys song)
Michail,
Oops, I was referring to your personal homepage website that is of course in Russian.
paging IanJ,
I see you were online last October, so maybe you would also like to describe your D3806 project please? thanks, grant
SS3800 VS. Seas 27TDFC (long winded)
OK ...... Here goes.
Have used both extensively. For the money.... if you can get away with a 1,375 hz fourth order acoustic out come... the TDFC is a giant killer. Very little for anything approaching it's every day price and availability comes close. And you can get a 4th order with a simple cap and coil. Add the usual single resistor pad... it doesn't get much simpler. John Krukte over at his Zaph Audio site has a great deal of both test and application information on his excellent site. WWW.zaphaudio.com .
Now to the SS3800. The truck.... hell semi truck of tweeters. Just how it is built. Huge magnet.. as much copper on the cap as you will ever see.... (SD-1 motor) ventilated pole piece, tuned rear chamber and so on. My only two knocks on this thing are the cost (now approaching prohibitive here in the US (even at dealer wholesale) ) & cheesy connecting loops. Can be run down around 950 hz with a single cap and series resistor to acheive a 2nd order acoustic with the -3 at around 1,000 hz. Several application notes. This thing has been around for approaching 20 years that I am aware of. So there have been changes. Original version had a hand doped dome with a bit more xmax. The newer versions... guessing late 90's.... a plain and lighter no dope version with a bit less x-max. No fero but a very smooth resonant peak like it does. Great motor design!!
Each had it's advantages.... earlier more like a dedicated extended range mid.... the later more like a heavy duty mid-tweeter.
You have to be carefull about the woofer you mate to it. It is a very low distortion tweeter and will show up crappy woofers pronto. Likes big paper and harmonically couples with them to the point of wonderment. Does not like aluminum and some poly pro cones. No rime or reason.... just what I have noticed.
Also it does have a mid - upper band rise and if you mate it to a small tweeter you will want to add a series inductor... say .15-.35 milli henry. And if you are padding more than 3 db to match your woofer a small by pass cap can help fill out the very top end if you are using this thing full range. Experiment... but .5-.75 MFD is a good place to start.
You can forth order acoustic at the bottom end if high power handling is needed. Will require a lot of experimentation to get right. Larger than standard inductor values tend to work better with a calculated 1,150 hz corner is a good starting place.
A bit long on this .... hope it helps.
Bottom line ..... both are close to state of the art and especially with the TDFC a great bargain and the 3800 can do things that NO OTHER off the shelf driver I am aware of can!!
Best
OK ...... Here goes.
Have used both extensively. For the money.... if you can get away with a 1,375 hz fourth order acoustic out come... the TDFC is a giant killer. Very little for anything approaching it's every day price and availability comes close. And you can get a 4th order with a simple cap and coil. Add the usual single resistor pad... it doesn't get much simpler. John Krukte over at his Zaph Audio site has a great deal of both test and application information on his excellent site. WWW.zaphaudio.com .
Now to the SS3800. The truck.... hell semi truck of tweeters. Just how it is built. Huge magnet.. as much copper on the cap as you will ever see.... (SD-1 motor) ventilated pole piece, tuned rear chamber and so on. My only two knocks on this thing are the cost (now approaching prohibitive here in the US (even at dealer wholesale) ) & cheesy connecting loops. Can be run down around 950 hz with a single cap and series resistor to acheive a 2nd order acoustic with the -3 at around 1,000 hz. Several application notes. This thing has been around for approaching 20 years that I am aware of. So there have been changes. Original version had a hand doped dome with a bit more xmax. The newer versions... guessing late 90's.... a plain and lighter no dope version with a bit less x-max. No fero but a very smooth resonant peak like it does. Great motor design!!
Each had it's advantages.... earlier more like a dedicated extended range mid.... the later more like a heavy duty mid-tweeter.
You have to be carefull about the woofer you mate to it. It is a very low distortion tweeter and will show up crappy woofers pronto. Likes big paper and harmonically couples with them to the point of wonderment. Does not like aluminum and some poly pro cones. No rime or reason.... just what I have noticed.
Also it does have a mid - upper band rise and if you mate it to a small tweeter you will want to add a series inductor... say .15-.35 milli henry. And if you are padding more than 3 db to match your woofer a small by pass cap can help fill out the very top end if you are using this thing full range. Experiment... but .5-.75 MFD is a good place to start.
You can forth order acoustic at the bottom end if high power handling is needed. Will require a lot of experimentation to get right. Larger than standard inductor values tend to work better with a calculated 1,150 hz corner is a good starting place.
A bit long on this .... hope it helps.
Bottom line ..... both are close to state of the art and especially with the TDFC a great bargain and the 3800 can do things that NO OTHER off the shelf driver I am aware of can!!
Best
Hi John,
Many thanks for your very informative and detailed post. Your experience with, and knowledge of, these drivers clearly shows! I had no idea that the SS3800 series had been around for so long, whaddyaknow! As much as I would like to buy a pair, sadly the price seems prohibitive to me.
2nd order acoustic @ 950 on the Scan doesn't seem to justify the exponential price hike over the Seas at about 400Hz higher.
So 4th order acoustic at 1375Hz on the Seas seems simple, doable and most importantly affordable to me. Vaguely, from memory , I think Zaph MIGHT have said its distortion characteristics were ok that low, but I will check. Anyway its acceptable to you, so why would I bother!
John, I really appreciate your post. It was very kind of you to relate your experience. A longer post would still have been gladly received!
Hmm, now I'm wondering.... if my 4 x 8" woofers Qts(manuf) 0.47 , 2 per side, would work OB with the 27TDFC? Happy holidays! ..grant
Many thanks for your very informative and detailed post. Your experience with, and knowledge of, these drivers clearly shows! I had no idea that the SS3800 series had been around for so long, whaddyaknow! As much as I would like to buy a pair, sadly the price seems prohibitive to me.
2nd order acoustic @ 950 on the Scan doesn't seem to justify the exponential price hike over the Seas at about 400Hz higher.
So 4th order acoustic at 1375Hz on the Seas seems simple, doable and most importantly affordable to me. Vaguely, from memory , I think Zaph MIGHT have said its distortion characteristics were ok that low, but I will check. Anyway its acceptable to you, so why would I bother!
John, I really appreciate your post. It was very kind of you to relate your experience. A longer post would still have been gladly received!
Hmm, now I'm wondering.... if my 4 x 8" woofers Qts(manuf) 0.47 , 2 per side, would work OB with the 27TDFC? Happy holidays! ..grant
Hi Grant
What a surprise seeing this resurrected after all this time...
I must admit I bought the 3806s in a hurry on ebay without checking too closely - I assumed they were similar in size and performance to 9500 series and was hoping for an easy upgrade to the Seas 27TFFCs in my IPL A2s (this is a UK kit speaker no longer available as it used the Audax HM170Z18). What a surprise when I found out how big and heavy they were! Mine must be the later version as the dome is practically transparent. Well, as we've all found out the 27TFFC and it's brethren aren't so easily dismissed - though without measuring gear my attempts were limited to just using existing x-o (2nd order at 3KHz) and removing the attenuating L-pad as the 3806 is a good ~4dB less sensitive. Being so robust I keep meaning to try a series x-o with the 3806 but still haven't got around to it. Sorry can't help more, but good to see there are other users out there. I think it's used on one of the big Troels G. projects too.
Ian
What a surprise seeing this resurrected after all this time...
I must admit I bought the 3806s in a hurry on ebay without checking too closely - I assumed they were similar in size and performance to 9500 series and was hoping for an easy upgrade to the Seas 27TFFCs in my IPL A2s (this is a UK kit speaker no longer available as it used the Audax HM170Z18). What a surprise when I found out how big and heavy they were! Mine must be the later version as the dome is practically transparent. Well, as we've all found out the 27TFFC and it's brethren aren't so easily dismissed - though without measuring gear my attempts were limited to just using existing x-o (2nd order at 3KHz) and removing the attenuating L-pad as the 3806 is a good ~4dB less sensitive. Being so robust I keep meaning to try a series x-o with the 3806 but still haven't got around to it. Sorry can't help more, but good to see there are other users out there. I think it's used on one of the big Troels G. projects too.
Ian
Hi Ian,
The 3806 looked so good I couldn't see why you got no replies, until
I realized the price - I think Pano said $150Us. Au price who knows?
Anyway it seems like you're happy with them. Please offer more info on your modified IPL A2's if you feel so inclined. How do they sound?
A series xo could be good? Have you seen Andy G's pages on this at Argos speakers Au? grant
The 3806 looked so good I couldn't see why you got no replies, until
I realized the price - I think Pano said $150Us. Au price who knows?
Anyway it seems like you're happy with them. Please offer more info on your modified IPL A2's if you feel so inclined. How do they sound?
A series xo could be good? Have you seen Andy G's pages on this at Argos speakers Au? grant
3806 SS motor
Michail....
Checked out (took apart) both old and revised production versions and both are similar and appear to be the SD layout. (full copper sleeve on the pole piece sides and top end). There are some subtle differences in the copper coating on the pole piece.... this may have to do with the slight changes in rated x-max...(.5 mm peak on the original) and .4 mm on the later version. Don't really know..... may be just common production variance. Also a slight difference in the FS to. The newer units are about 100 HZ lower on balance. But to the eye both motors are very similar. The foam plug in the vented pole piece is a bit different too.
Like I said... as much copper as you will likely see in a tweeter.
Thanks for pointing out that SD configuration seems to be correct for both versions of the 3800's.
Michail....
Checked out (took apart) both old and revised production versions and both are similar and appear to be the SD layout. (full copper sleeve on the pole piece sides and top end). There are some subtle differences in the copper coating on the pole piece.... this may have to do with the slight changes in rated x-max...(.5 mm peak on the original) and .4 mm on the later version. Don't really know..... may be just common production variance. Also a slight difference in the FS to. The newer units are about 100 HZ lower on balance. But to the eye both motors are very similar. The foam plug in the vented pole piece is a bit different too.
Like I said... as much copper as you will likely see in a tweeter.
Thanks for pointing out that SD configuration seems to be correct for both versions of the 3800's.
PING Panomaniac
Sorry to wake this thread up again...
Hi Panomaniac,
I saw your post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1373581#post1373581
mentioning the X-over for SS D3806.
How do you found the rising response of D3806? are they acceptable so that you did not shelf them with notch filter?
May I know what woofer do you us it with? In OB or in box?
Thanks,
---
David
Sorry to wake this thread up again...
Hi Panomaniac,
I saw your post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1373581#post1373581
mentioning the X-over for SS D3806.
How do you found the rising response of D3806? are they acceptable so that you did not shelf them with notch filter?
May I know what woofer do you us it with? In OB or in box?
Thanks,
---
David
Inspired by the thread titled 'The PENCIL' I now have my 3800s perched on top of the magnets of the Audax mid-bass which now fire down into test cabs made from solid wood bread-bins. 10ohms attenuation followed by 4.7uF give a xo about 4kHz (yes I know, a bit of a waste of such a big teetwer) and just the inductor from the original kit on the Audax. Very promising - very clear sound and they look great, the huge tweeter sitting on the frame reminds me of a radio telescope - will refine further and report on the PENCIL thread...
Ian
Ian
Hi Ian,
that's a good news
I have limited experience on DIY and on audio in general. But I learn a lot from DIY Audio forums. I even got my gainclone amp from Peter Daniel, which is an active member of this forum.
Time to time, I learn a few things about audio.... and about speaker, two way especially,... is... I have to cross the driver as high or as low whenever possible. With first option, that is to have a woofer or mid-woofer that can still produce low-treble nicely... so the woofer is the most important part. With the second option is to have a tweeter that can work low covering upper mid nicely.
Any 'normal' tweeter size of 1 or 1.1 inches usualy can work first option easily. "Affordable" 27 series tweeter from SEAS are off a very high standard quality... that even 27TBFC and TDFC are sweared by some people belong to the best tweeters regardless of the price... But to have a woofer that can work well until low-treble region is a diffcult task. It is either very expensive models or force us to go to a 3 way system.
The second option seems more promising.... There seems numbers of "reasonably priced" woofers from SEAS and USHER that can produce mid region nicely. That's why I'm really interrested to hear about SS D3806, since it seems can work easily down to the mid region.
Regards,
---
David
that's a good news
I have limited experience on DIY and on audio in general. But I learn a lot from DIY Audio forums. I even got my gainclone amp from Peter Daniel, which is an active member of this forum.
Time to time, I learn a few things about audio.... and about speaker, two way especially,... is... I have to cross the driver as high or as low whenever possible. With first option, that is to have a woofer or mid-woofer that can still produce low-treble nicely... so the woofer is the most important part. With the second option is to have a tweeter that can work low covering upper mid nicely.
Any 'normal' tweeter size of 1 or 1.1 inches usualy can work first option easily. "Affordable" 27 series tweeter from SEAS are off a very high standard quality... that even 27TBFC and TDFC are sweared by some people belong to the best tweeters regardless of the price... But to have a woofer that can work well until low-treble region is a diffcult task. It is either very expensive models or force us to go to a 3 way system.
The second option seems more promising.... There seems numbers of "reasonably priced" woofers from SEAS and USHER that can produce mid region nicely. That's why I'm really interrested to hear about SS D3806, since it seems can work easily down to the mid region.
Regards,
---
David
ScanSpeak D3806 series
Hi Ian , Michael and other afficionados!
Thanks so much for this thread from 2004.
The Scan series D3806 series is enduring...
They seem like my ideal tweeter if priced right!
But huge $ bucks in AU. Like 4 times Seas TDFC.
And I STILL want 2!...I don't have to buy mids,
just 18 inch woofers working to 800? Hertz.
I'm seeking a 2way OB ..with great sound,
comments very welcome! grant
Hi Ian , Michael and other afficionados!
Thanks so much for this thread from 2004.
The Scan series D3806 series is enduring...
They seem like my ideal tweeter if priced right!
But huge $ bucks in AU. Like 4 times Seas TDFC.
And I STILL want 2!...I don't have to buy mids,
just 18 inch woofers working to 800? Hertz.
I'm seeking a 2way OB ..with great sound,
comments very welcome! grant
Hi Grant,
I seems toward the same direction as you are...
There is another big tweeter on the market... Audax TW034.
There ara some reference on the net if you google for it... Seems to be used for two ways with 8inch and above woofer...
The problem seems that TW034 does not work as low as D3806... so you need to cross it steeper... Money seems don't lie in this case...
Regards,
---
David
I seems toward the same direction as you are...
There is another big tweeter on the market... Audax TW034.
There ara some reference on the net if you google for it... Seems to be used for two ways with 8inch and above woofer...
The problem seems that TW034 does not work as low as D3806... so you need to cross it steeper... Money seems don't lie in this case...
Regards,
---
David
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