As I see it, the tests conducted in both cases ( Klippel's and Dr.Geddes') are perfectly suited to the very nature of their business with a difference that Dr.Geddes used to think the same way as Klippel but with time changed his mind based on scientific evaluation that proved such distortion to not be of an issue.
Probably the best approach is to try and find some commercial designs using Morel drivers and have a listen to them. That should give an idea of the potential, and also whether they are to the OP's taste or not.
I suspect a lot of people have been turned off by zaph's reports all those years ago. I had a conversation with him about the MW144's he measured, as his results were so wildly different (on the T/S params) that I couldn't believe that they could be the same drivers... he only had two and admitted they could have been a faulty pair.
The problem is, they ARE expensive, and us diyers do tend to rely on some form of independent verification before forking out large sums of cash, and so it goes that not many people end up taking the risk on something that has had some bad press (understandably so!!)
Tony.
I suspect a lot of people have been turned off by zaph's reports all those years ago. I had a conversation with him about the MW144's he measured, as his results were so wildly different (on the T/S params) that I couldn't believe that they could be the same drivers... he only had two and admitted they could have been a faulty pair.
The problem is, they ARE expensive, and us diyers do tend to rely on some form of independent verification before forking out large sums of cash, and so it goes that not many people end up taking the risk on something that has had some bad press (understandably so!!)
Tony.
Most of the time you'll find the AT stuff is more costly than the Morel stuff, usually not by a small margin.
Later,
Wolf
I personally think that some people are much more affected by distortion than others, and I'm not talking about golden ears. Just that some people are sensitive to certain aberrations that others may not even be aware of. I can be finding something intolerable that others will wonder what I'm even talking about. I find this with sound as well as vision.
The compromises I make because of what annoys me, may be compromises that other people couldn't live with, and vice versa.
Tony.
I can go with that.
As I have said elsewhere on this forum I have recently been diagnosed with ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) and the most obvious symptom besides being hypersensitive to chemical smells is that the cocktail party effect (Cocktail party effect - Wikipedia) does not happen for me at all. I hear everything all the time if I want to or not.
It could easily extrapolated, wrongly or rightly, that in case of music reproduction most people just unconsciously mask distortion artifacts.
On the Klippel test I merely picked the one that sounded less annoying until the samples became indistinguishable to me at around 0.5%THD.
I did it through my speakers which themselves have 0.5% so I can't really say if I reached my limit or just that of my speakers.
May be I should have repeated the test using headphones but if I ever hear 'Fast Car' again it will be too soon!
I will second that.
BTW the huge VC designs give a much shorter distance to cone edge and can result in pushing cone breakup out enough to make a solid improvement in sound, However with a coil that big you end up having a bigger expense in magnet structure IF you want a reasonable X max and most will not implement that. Not a great design choice if you want to make deeper bass from a smaller cone.
As well as mentioned now you have less room for a good long travel and linear spider.
I suspect these drivers can make for some good results IF you avoid moving them a lot.
As for the distortion thang. Winter has a point IMO, but I will add that ribbon development has shown me that we are FAR more irritated to breakup( even reasonably controlled) and long ringing decays than we are to distortion ( within reason whatever that is).
I have ribbons that are very smooth and show excellent pulse, BUT show 3rd harmonic at 2-3 % at elevated volume. In test they sound no worse than same basic ribbon that shows and order of magnitude lower distortion!
I did not want to believe this btw.
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^An important notice about "ringing" ie. long decay sounding irritating! This emphasizes cone behaviour's importance over motor's. I believe in this, but ofcourse the most extreme cases of harmonic distortion will be audible too. That needs usually very high spl instead of decay problems which happen also at normal listening level.
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yep. I suspect that a short travel motor system will have gross distortion when it hits its limits and perhaps those who have had bad experience with these drivers are simply driving at volume levels that go there. If any bass is to be had you could hit this level quick??
BTW a large diam motor coil with "inset magnet" I suspect would have issues with venting at larger movements as well. We are seeing much more attention today tp a free flowing designed behind the cone
BTW a large diam motor coil with "inset magnet" I suspect would have issues with venting at larger movements as well. We are seeing much more attention today tp a free flowing designed behind the cone
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Hmmm.....
The mineral injected poly cones sound nice, crisp, but not as resonant as some paper nor soggy like poly. I think that is a big plus. You can notch a cone resonance out, but even if it measures flat it is still ringing longer than it should. Also a frequency 1/2 and 1/3 of the resonance sneaks around the notch and causes the cone to ring, it could be a 10db spike, yikes.
I like paper cones and wool (silver flutes). Many metallic mixed cones have a ringing in them that i find offensive.
I think i read somewhere that most of the sound quality is wrapped up in the motor.
I also liked the (past model) morel mw144.
Now the 3" coil 6.5", if i remember, without the copper sleeve, it was nothing special (for the money), but add in the copper sleeve (originally developed for magico) and it is wonderful, not cheap, but wonderful.
This diy stuff can be frustrating, even for the olders. It if far more impressive to "build a silk purse from a sow's ear", or 90% sound quality for 20% the cost. But eventually, better is better, then you'll plunk down way more money for incremental improvements that you may or may not even hear.
The mineral injected poly cones sound nice, crisp, but not as resonant as some paper nor soggy like poly. I think that is a big plus. You can notch a cone resonance out, but even if it measures flat it is still ringing longer than it should. Also a frequency 1/2 and 1/3 of the resonance sneaks around the notch and causes the cone to ring, it could be a 10db spike, yikes.
I like paper cones and wool (silver flutes). Many metallic mixed cones have a ringing in them that i find offensive.
I think i read somewhere that most of the sound quality is wrapped up in the motor.
I also liked the (past model) morel mw144.
Now the 3" coil 6.5", if i remember, without the copper sleeve, it was nothing special (for the money), but add in the copper sleeve (originally developed for magico) and it is wonderful, not cheap, but wonderful.
This diy stuff can be frustrating, even for the olders. It if far more impressive to "build a silk purse from a sow's ear", or 90% sound quality for 20% the cost. But eventually, better is better, then you'll plunk down way more money for incremental improvements that you may or may not even hear.
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In the case of these drivers I suspect their flatish response is more to do with the diameter of the VC than the cone material
Cone shape/ size/ profile and proper termination has proven to be more important than material. The 3 " VC has its virtues BUT it has its issues as well. Good design is not so much an extreme hear and there as it is a balancing of compromises to achieve the best overall perf.
The ear loves to hear claims that contradict reality.
Cone shape/ size/ profile and proper termination has proven to be more important than material. The 3 " VC has its virtues BUT it has its issues as well. Good design is not so much an extreme hear and there as it is a balancing of compromises to achieve the best overall perf.
The ear loves to hear claims that contradict reality.
I can anecdotally back that up. My MTM's use MW144's in 5L (each) enclosures. F3 at about 90Hz. They sounded good, but were definitely lacking bass (the design was always supposed to be crossed to subs). I eventually got around to making my active crossover to crossover to my 10" Vifa M26WR09-08's and I crossed at an accoustic 4th order bessel at 270 Hz. Appart from the expected improvement in bass, there was an unexpected improvement in midrange clarity (and they already sounded good before).
So based on one persons subjective evaluation I would say yes reducing their travel made them a whole lot better
edit: It's like with photography, knowing the limitations of your equipment and working within those limitations will give you a lot better results.
Tony.
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True, true.
I keep remembering a friend (rip) who worked mid 80's at a jbl klipsch dealer.
He said a kg2 8" 2-way (1khz xover) actively crossed to a jbl 15 sounded better (and imaged) than anything in the store, klipschorn, lascalla, chorus, and his personal fav forte. Wish i knew what frequency he was crossing.
At the end of the day, an 8" 2-way is an 8" 2-way. A 2 x 6.5" is an 8" 2-way, better horizontal dispersion,, worse vertical, but theoretically cleaner up by crossover point.
I am a morel fan boy, there, i said it, lol.
But yes, run wide open, I'm paranoid i will blow the 6.5's at $240 each, frustrating.
I know i can punch in crossover, but i think i hear that phase wrap in the bass, especially on drum runs and bass guitar.
And I'm used to double 15's from 30-750hz.
I had luck with a 12" full range crossing around 100hz.
Mltl can dig pretty deep, just don't expect flattening volume levels.
I keep remembering a friend (rip) who worked mid 80's at a jbl klipsch dealer.
He said a kg2 8" 2-way (1khz xover) actively crossed to a jbl 15 sounded better (and imaged) than anything in the store, klipschorn, lascalla, chorus, and his personal fav forte. Wish i knew what frequency he was crossing.
At the end of the day, an 8" 2-way is an 8" 2-way. A 2 x 6.5" is an 8" 2-way, better horizontal dispersion,, worse vertical, but theoretically cleaner up by crossover point.
I am a morel fan boy, there, i said it, lol.
But yes, run wide open, I'm paranoid i will blow the 6.5's at $240 each, frustrating.
I know i can punch in crossover, but i think i hear that phase wrap in the bass, especially on drum runs and bass guitar.
And I'm used to double 15's from 30-750hz.
I had luck with a 12" full range crossing around 100hz.
Mltl can dig pretty deep, just don't expect flattening volume levels.
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Absolutely true, we have got at least one report that I remember so far by a forum member in regard to being sensitive to the way the tweeter emits frequencies in space.
American and Israeli brands I seem to recall.
We had similar over here with Jordan and Bandor loudspeaker drivers
Originally they were affiliated with each other. Morel-USA then had drivers that were independent of Morel Israel, and ultimately rebadged their line as 'Renaissance' drivers and loudspeakers due to problems in recognition, confusion, etc.. They also had quality issues, and were more shoddy than the Israel made products to where they ultimately severed ties. Shabani is Morel-USA, and Mordechai is Morel-Israel. AFAIK, Renaissance is still in business, but not many show them any consideration or thought.
Later,
Wolf
Later,
Wolf
