Hello diyaudio society,
I am considering building a 4 way home HiFi system. I want to achieve a realistic music reproduction to give as much as possible of live music feeling with all dynamics and “presence” of live performance. I have played with multiple HiFi Bass reflex designs, Fostex back loaded horns, open baffles with 2x15”. Each system had pros and cons, but none of them so far gave me a feeling of a live performance. The proposed below setup is what I am now believing in.
So the bass section is planned to be handled by 18” woofer in an H-frame and to cover from 30 to 90 Hz. I like bass from open baffles and H-frames. The woofer I am looking at is Dayton PA460-8:
PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer 8 Ohm Specification Sheet
With a reasonable price it has low mechanical losses, just enough Xmax, nice impedance curve and overall good parameters.
For mid-bass I plan to use Beyma 10g40 woofer, will play between approx. 80-90 and 500-700 Hz. A good driver on paper and I heard a lot of good things about its performance as a mid bass. I am not sure what type of cabinet to use for this application, either closed box or BR and would like to hear opinions. Approximate planned enclosure volume is 18-25 liters.
For the mid I am looking at Faital 4FE32. Good sensitivity to match with the 10g40, good price and performance. I have its little ferrite brother used as a mid range in my car and I love them.
Finally, for high frequencies above 3-5 kHz I want to use a planar tweeter rt2h-a. Optionally a supertweeter can also be added above 10k.
I made a quick sketch of a 3D model and one speaker should look something like in the attachment.
I will use bi-amping and MiniDSP, but having only 4 outputs I will need a passive crossover for either 3 top speakers or one for top 2 and one for bass-midbass.
Anyway, for now it is just an idea and I would like to hear comments/suggestions. I am quite new to speaker building but I have a basic knowledge and measurement equipment. For this project I have a limited budget, so much more expensive drivers will not be on option.
Thanks in advance and best regards,
Anton
I am considering building a 4 way home HiFi system. I want to achieve a realistic music reproduction to give as much as possible of live music feeling with all dynamics and “presence” of live performance. I have played with multiple HiFi Bass reflex designs, Fostex back loaded horns, open baffles with 2x15”. Each system had pros and cons, but none of them so far gave me a feeling of a live performance. The proposed below setup is what I am now believing in.
So the bass section is planned to be handled by 18” woofer in an H-frame and to cover from 30 to 90 Hz. I like bass from open baffles and H-frames. The woofer I am looking at is Dayton PA460-8:
PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer 8 Ohm Specification Sheet
With a reasonable price it has low mechanical losses, just enough Xmax, nice impedance curve and overall good parameters.
For mid-bass I plan to use Beyma 10g40 woofer, will play between approx. 80-90 and 500-700 Hz. A good driver on paper and I heard a lot of good things about its performance as a mid bass. I am not sure what type of cabinet to use for this application, either closed box or BR and would like to hear opinions. Approximate planned enclosure volume is 18-25 liters.
For the mid I am looking at Faital 4FE32. Good sensitivity to match with the 10g40, good price and performance. I have its little ferrite brother used as a mid range in my car and I love them.
Finally, for high frequencies above 3-5 kHz I want to use a planar tweeter rt2h-a. Optionally a supertweeter can also be added above 10k.
I made a quick sketch of a 3D model and one speaker should look something like in the attachment.
I will use bi-amping and MiniDSP, but having only 4 outputs I will need a passive crossover for either 3 top speakers or one for top 2 and one for bass-midbass.
Anyway, for now it is just an idea and I would like to hear comments/suggestions. I am quite new to speaker building but I have a basic knowledge and measurement equipment. For this project I have a limited budget, so much more expensive drivers will not be on option.
Thanks in advance and best regards,
Anton
Attachments
I see 4fe32 potentially as a limiting factor here. Nothing against it, is cute little fullrange, I have it. There may be better 5" to use. Or even 6". I used 6fe200 many times, I take it all the way to 5k Hz, and I have data to prove it. Sound great, not to mention 200 watts...you will never hear it struggle. 4fe32 will start farting.
I like the concept/topology. This is similar to the sound I like in my room. Open baffle bass with more direct sound radiators for the vocals and everything above it. The back wall in my room is too close so voices don't seem quite right with full range open baffle.
Since you are planning on a 10" that is sensitive maybe you could consider a horn with compression driver instead of the midrange + tweeter? Maybe a SEOS horn for reasonably wide dispersion.
If you want a wider dispersion build and depending on your BSC then the scan speak 10F is reasonable high efficiency and pretty close if not the same as the 4fe32. There is also the PM180 from dayton which is higher efficiency but a 6.5" so crossing over the tweeter down that low might pose a problem.
Since you are planning on a 10" that is sensitive maybe you could consider a horn with compression driver instead of the midrange + tweeter? Maybe a SEOS horn for reasonably wide dispersion.
If you want a wider dispersion build and depending on your BSC then the scan speak 10F is reasonable high efficiency and pretty close if not the same as the 4fe32. There is also the PM180 from dayton which is higher efficiency but a 6.5" so crossing over the tweeter down that low might pose a problem.
Thank you all for the replies.
adason, interesting regarding 4fe32. I am using 3fe25 in my car playing 300 to 5kHz and they perform well even on high levels. I like them because they are flat, impedance curve allows simple and higher crossover and that they working in about 0,6 liter closed enclosures give me a very realistic feeling of main drum, voices etc. So for the proposed configuration I was thinking about the 4fe32 because it will be crossed rather high (500-700 to 3-5k) it should perform well having low size and Mms. Anyhow, I consider your point and will also look at other drivers. 5fe120 also looks good on paper, will it be a good option? I do not have experience with 6fe200, but I have used 8fe200 with good success playing up to 1k, but I neither tried them playing higher. How would 6fe200 perform above 1-2k? Can you suggest some other options?
When you wrote about distortions from 4fe32, was it also crossed nearly high and used as a mid or was it used as a full range?
mlee, yes the concept comes out from what I have heard and had positive experience so far. I played with OB and I love bass from OB; but mid-bass is sort of scooped. I also find 18" speakers having large cove area and high moving mass to produce better bass especially in h-frame. When it comes to mid-bass - the best I have hearrd was from 10 or 12" PA woofer in BR or closed box. It reproduces very well all drums, bass pluck, guitar cabs and gives planty of punch. Next comes high-mid and here I still have doubts either to go with a compression driver or the midrange + tweeter. Both options would work, but actually 10g40 is not that sensitive (about 91-92 db) and compression driver would need quite much attenuation if going passive, while there are options with suitable sensitivity of midranges. I also like the sound of smaller midranges in small enclosures and in combination with a planar tweeter can be not a bad idea for reasonable budget.
I have looked at scan speak 10F, but sensitivity could be an issue as it seems to be about 6db lower than other proposed speakers. The PM180 looks good, but the frequency responce seems to be a disaster after 1k
How would a compression driver perform when comparing to mid+tweet? Are there any good options to be crossed low 500-700 with 10g40?
Hoo19, I have and HD version of minidsp and I use it as a streamer. I do not know if it is possible to add one more unit in this configuration without unnecessary DA-AD conversion. I agree this could be a very convenient option. On the other hand, in future I would like to step away from DSP because I experienced problems with MiniDSP. My unit just stopped working properly a week ago. Luckily I bought it from a local dealer who agreed that it seems to be a hardware problem and will accept a claim and send me a new one in coming days. So it is a second week without music. This experience lead me to think that this is a complex and quite unique device which my system is fully dependent on and there is no backup in case it goes wrong
adason, interesting regarding 4fe32. I am using 3fe25 in my car playing 300 to 5kHz and they perform well even on high levels. I like them because they are flat, impedance curve allows simple and higher crossover and that they working in about 0,6 liter closed enclosures give me a very realistic feeling of main drum, voices etc. So for the proposed configuration I was thinking about the 4fe32 because it will be crossed rather high (500-700 to 3-5k) it should perform well having low size and Mms. Anyhow, I consider your point and will also look at other drivers. 5fe120 also looks good on paper, will it be a good option? I do not have experience with 6fe200, but I have used 8fe200 with good success playing up to 1k, but I neither tried them playing higher. How would 6fe200 perform above 1-2k? Can you suggest some other options?
When you wrote about distortions from 4fe32, was it also crossed nearly high and used as a mid or was it used as a full range?
mlee, yes the concept comes out from what I have heard and had positive experience so far. I played with OB and I love bass from OB; but mid-bass is sort of scooped. I also find 18" speakers having large cove area and high moving mass to produce better bass especially in h-frame. When it comes to mid-bass - the best I have hearrd was from 10 or 12" PA woofer in BR or closed box. It reproduces very well all drums, bass pluck, guitar cabs and gives planty of punch. Next comes high-mid and here I still have doubts either to go with a compression driver or the midrange + tweeter. Both options would work, but actually 10g40 is not that sensitive (about 91-92 db) and compression driver would need quite much attenuation if going passive, while there are options with suitable sensitivity of midranges. I also like the sound of smaller midranges in small enclosures and in combination with a planar tweeter can be not a bad idea for reasonable budget.
I have looked at scan speak 10F, but sensitivity could be an issue as it seems to be about 6db lower than other proposed speakers. The PM180 looks good, but the frequency responce seems to be a disaster after 1k
How would a compression driver perform when comparing to mid+tweet? Are there any good options to be crossed low 500-700 with 10g40?
Hoo19, I have and HD version of minidsp and I use it as a streamer. I do not know if it is possible to add one more unit in this configuration without unnecessary DA-AD conversion. I agree this could be a very convenient option. On the other hand, in future I would like to step away from DSP because I experienced problems with MiniDSP. My unit just stopped working properly a week ago. Luckily I bought it from a local dealer who agreed that it seems to be a hardware problem and will accept a claim and send me a new one in coming days. So it is a second week without music. This experience lead me to think that this is a complex and quite unique device which my system is fully dependent on and there is no backup in case it goes wrong
There are quite a few tried and tested h frame subs using the Eminence 15 Alpha (I think) driver.
Have a read of Martin Kings work, dimensions in there. Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Have a read of Martin Kings work, dimensions in there. Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Instead of using minidsp successfully macbook+ pure music with FabFilterProQ..can with budget m-audio firewire 410.
This guy used dac rosetta 800 instead of a sound card and four beyma 15" speakers to get a real bass+ one 18" also small shields but this is 4 way.The bass shields were reinforced with poured concrete.
YouTube
sorry i know the OP wants "dynamics" from his "loudspeakers" i just hate when people want "LIVE PERFORMANCE" dynamics from a compressed "recording".....
and as a long time concert sound engineer i can assure you that compression and dynamic range processing is in use at all modern concerts (except for the local punk/metal band show at the local "all ages" club)
and as a long time concert sound engineer i can assure you that compression and dynamic range processing is in use at all modern concerts (except for the local punk/metal band show at the local "all ages" club)
Thank you all for replies!
Regarding the mid driver, the new 6RS140 looks like a very nice driver. Perhaps I will consider it even though I might need to extend my budget.
Still a question fremains what kind of enclosure type to use for 10g40, closed box or bass reflex? Any suggestions?
One more question, if I consider 10g40 together with mid and tweeter as a passively crossed system, expected sensitivity will be about 90-92db I believe. I have a PP tube amp about 20W and I wonder if it will be a sufficient option to run this top speakers at normal listening levels? For the 18" bass I have class D Hypex amps.
turk 182, I see your point and it may be worth trying. I am a musician myself, but I never considered using dynamic range processing for home stereo. Could be a bit tricky though with active biamped system.
Regarding the mid driver, the new 6RS140 looks like a very nice driver. Perhaps I will consider it even though I might need to extend my budget.
Still a question fremains what kind of enclosure type to use for 10g40, closed box or bass reflex? Any suggestions?
One more question, if I consider 10g40 together with mid and tweeter as a passively crossed system, expected sensitivity will be about 90-92db I believe. I have a PP tube amp about 20W and I wonder if it will be a sufficient option to run this top speakers at normal listening levels? For the 18" bass I have class D Hypex amps.
turk 182, I see your point and it may be worth trying. I am a musician myself, but I never considered using dynamic range processing for home stereo. Could be a bit tricky though with active biamped system.
I guess that turk means that you should use an expander for playback.
Just think of how an electric guitar sounds unprocessed - it is always played smoothly and compressed in commercial recordings! This is one of the most live-like recordings that I know Live at Blues Alley - Wikipedia
Video with some extra compression for sure YouTube
Just think of how an electric guitar sounds unprocessed - it is always played smoothly and compressed in commercial recordings! This is one of the most live-like recordings that I know Live at Blues Alley - Wikipedia
Video with some extra compression for sure YouTube
About the design of 10g40 that's what write on the russian forum:
Adjust the bass reflex to a frequency of 75 Hz at -6 dB. The design of the closed box for that speaker is completely unacceptable. With the volume, everything is somewhat more complicated. In principle, it is quite small considering the caliber of the speakers. here the fact is that BEYMA 10G40 has undergone several upgrades. And the parameters for each of them are significantly different. Therefore, before counting it is necessary to measure the dynamics (it is not known with what parameters of the dynamics you find, you can not believe datasheet).
Here is a photo of another project where there is 10g40 in 3 way and Beyma 6Mi90 for midrange( or beyma 6G40 can be used)
http://forum.vegalab.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=190199&d=1377278590
http://forum.vegalab.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=190198&d=1377278541
all topic discussion and graphics:
???????????-??????? ?? Beyma - ???????? 12
Thank you all for replies.
A little update on status of things, speakers are ordered and will hopefully all be recieved during next week.
Since the initial idea the type of drivers has been somewhat reconsidered. The concept remains the same but the drivers will be used are:
18" Beyma 18lx60 for H-frame bass
10" Faital 10fh520 for mid bass
5" Beyma pro5wnd for mid
Planar tweeterRT2H-A.
I decided to go with just two amplifiers, so the top three drivers will be passively crossed. Crossover points will be approximately 700Hz and 3kHz. Faital will be playing in a bass reflex box tuned to about 65-70Hz. The plan for the way forward is to build enclosure prototypes for 10fh520 and pro5wnd and test/listen/measure to define optimum enclosure volume and tune. The next step is to build initial enclosures and perform measurements of each driver in the box, both frequency and impedance responces. Having the data the crossover can be simulated in software. Based on results assemble crossover and make final tunungs.
A little update on status of things, speakers are ordered and will hopefully all be recieved during next week.
Since the initial idea the type of drivers has been somewhat reconsidered. The concept remains the same but the drivers will be used are:
18" Beyma 18lx60 for H-frame bass
10" Faital 10fh520 for mid bass
5" Beyma pro5wnd for mid
Planar tweeterRT2H-A.
I decided to go with just two amplifiers, so the top three drivers will be passively crossed. Crossover points will be approximately 700Hz and 3kHz. Faital will be playing in a bass reflex box tuned to about 65-70Hz. The plan for the way forward is to build enclosure prototypes for 10fh520 and pro5wnd and test/listen/measure to define optimum enclosure volume and tune. The next step is to build initial enclosures and perform measurements of each driver in the box, both frequency and impedance responces. Having the data the crossover can be simulated in software. Based on results assemble crossover and make final tunungs.
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