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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Do you measure then listen or listen then measure?
Do you measure then listen or listen then measure?
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Old 5th October 2017, 05:57 PM   #21
badman is offline badman  United States
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Simulate, build, listen then measure (except for impedance measurement, which must be done before initial XO design)- I use well-behaved filters and drivers, so high-Q resonances aren't really an issue, and I can identify most problems above a dB or two from listening. The measurement is then used as validation and to more precisely shift tonal balance, etc.
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Old 5th October 2017, 06:12 PM   #22
OllBoll is offline OllBoll  Sweden
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I have done both.

After doing a listening comparison between a dipole and an omni speaker I discarded omnis and have gone pure dipole.

Within the realm of dipoles I've been measuring a lot to try to get the perfect dipole pattern. I did try different tweeters. I had one setup with waveguided dome tweeters that measured extremely good but something just didn't sound right, they didn't sound as nice as my cone tweeters so I've continued down along that path.

In the end I've learnt what many others here already preach, to not overcomplicate or to fix too much. Simplicity is worth pursuing, especially when it is so easy to overdo it with for example DSP in an active setup.
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Old 5th October 2017, 06:45 PM   #23
andy2 is offline andy2  United States
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Sometimes during my build, I find the drivers match so well that I went straight to listening without any measurement.
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Old 5th October 2017, 07:34 PM   #24
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Do you measure then listen or listen then measure?
Does this thread belongs in The Lounge forum?

Now and then over the years at DIYaudio, we get the techies lambasting the golden-ear crowd. Maybe the "goal posts" for being golden-eared have moved.

But I would add a further complication. Measurements have their own peculiarities and easy to do it badly too. Even if done carefully, still rather cumbersome to define just how the measurements were done... smoothing, window, single speaker or dual mono, mic pick-up pattern.....

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Last edited by bentoronto; 5th October 2017 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 5th October 2017, 07:50 PM   #25
benb is offline benb  United States
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Do you measure then listen or listen then measure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Arrogance, arrogance, arrogance. Everybody is certain they can hear and discriminate what frequencies and bands are errant. Toole showed you can't tell with music a boost in the upper bass from a cut in the lower treble and vice versa.
Such things can be learned, or at least that's the claim for this product. I haven't got it because I'm not really sure I want to hear 'this' well:
Moulton Laboratories :: Golden Ears
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:11 PM   #26
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Do you measure then listen or listen then measure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by benb View Post
Such things can be learned, or at least that's the claim for this product. I haven't got it because I'm not really sure I want to hear 'this' well:
Not quite right to equate the unbelievable advertising puffery of an unknown company or the abilities some have posted anonymously above to the published research of Toole.

B.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 5th October 2017 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:14 PM   #27
Speaker Dude is offline Speaker Dude  United States
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At least a quick FR measurement is needed to make sure you have built the crossovers correctly and connected all the drivers in proper phase (and to the correct crossover section) and to make sure the left and right speakers match. It is surprising how a totally screwed up crossover can sound OK depending on the source material. I also check that the crossover frequencies and slopes match the simulation.
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:52 PM   #28
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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I'm into 4-way active designs where each section is first individually measured and adjusted for flat magnitude and phase over its intended passband.
Once that's done, linear phase crossovers are put in place.
Which leaves tying them all together, with proper polarity, timing, and levels.

Relative section levels can be done by ear.

But the only real clue that polarity or timing isn't correct, is a sound that says "something just ain't right".
IME, it's nearly always from mismatched phase alignments, which then induce magnitude variations.

So for me, it's kinda not even worth the trouble to listen, until I've achieved a smooth phase trace and know that timings and polarities are correct.
This also let's me know that magnitude is as smooth as it's gonna get without further work.

A kinda cool aside IMO (and only a recent discovery) is that when I have a smooth phase trace near zero degrees tying all the sections together,
then the relative levels between sections can be changed without changing the phase trace
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Old 5th October 2017, 09:27 PM   #29
kaputt is offline kaputt  Germany
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When building speakers I first listen and then measure. Then adjust, measure, adjust, measure, listen.
Mostly I build amplifiers. These I first measure and then listen.
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Old 5th October 2017, 10:10 PM   #30
PetruV is offline PetruV  Romania
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Listen,eq to taste until I don't know how to improve it,then I measure,I don't know how much good that does since I don't have a proper measurement mic
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