Hi Patrick
“It's really bizarre that such a humongous speaker disappears sonically. I really want to hear a Jericho now.”
It’s too bad you weren’t at the trade show when we introduced Caleb, the largest Jericho. We weren’t going to run it but Ivan and I were clowning around and wired all the drivers in series parallel (no crossover) and brought it out on a 1/8” plug. We showed Mike that an Iphone was more than enough to power it at modest levels.
Mike is even more of a cut up than Ivan or myself and he went ahead an made it part of the demo room presentation.
At that point, he had people walk up and listen to where it sounds like it’s coming from, as they moved up and down and some went inside the horn itself.
Anyway, that you and your daughter hear something “different” about the radiation is nice to hear.
When I was working on the late Unity horns / early Synergy horns, as the TDS measurements indicated I was getting closer and closer to how a single small source would radiate, a funny thing about how it sounded happened too. With a soft voice, played through one speaker, if you closed your eyes,it was easy to hear what direction he speaker was BUT it was getting notably harder to sense how far away the speaker was.
It reminded me of my old Boss’s esl 63’s that he gave me and asked me to disable the annoying spark gap “protection”. They did a similar thing in that the sound often sounded like it was coming from behind the loudspeaker even when outdoors and there was no wall to reflect the rear back.
At the same time, working on the horns that how far away it sounded was more dependent on the recording, a dry voice would be up close but with hf roll off and reverb, far away etc.
Understand, I pretty much follow my nose so this idea isn’t universal but it was my conclusion that the only way one speaker can be easy to hear and another hard to hear it’s depth location, is because sound radiated from a single point presents an identical signal to each ear while the one that has depth information, can only radiate that by having differences between the right and left ears (both cases assume facing the same way).
With the Unity and then Synergy horns, the object was to combine multiple sources in such a way that what radiates appears to be from a single source. With any of them, even the Caleb, you can walk up, put your head in the horn (walk in the Caleb), move around and you never hear anything but a source of sound that seems to always be floating in front of you.
In large scale sound, the problems are greater than in the home, the distance to listeners is vastly larger which requires much more acoustic power, the ratio of absorption to the volume of air makes large rooms very live and problematic. These problems seemed addressable by a full range horn which could avoid the interference pattern produced by many sources in an array.
The funny part is that in most of the uses of our stuff at work isn’t in stereo, the lack of what I called “spatial identity” is rarely recognized other than producing a mono phantom image in Churches and such (the voice sounds like it’s coming from the person talking).
In stereo is where this makes a difference as when everything is right, you can feed the R and L speakers a mono voice and you hear a voice clear as day solidly in the center and also be unaware of the right and left source. Once one has that, anything “in stereo” is less demanding.
I have a real fondness for the SH-50’s, they were my first full wood Synergy horn designed about 10 years ago. I have one of the first production pairs as my R and L system. You said you live in a small place and can’t measure outdoors but I would still suggest you try applying some eq and you can alter what the speaker does pretty effectively.
Like any loudspeaker, you only want to try to fix what is fixable. The up side is that where the drivers add / interact, is so close acoustically it’s unilateral and these radiate a lot less sound energy off axis and a lot less harmonic distortion per spl than most.
As far from walls etc as possible, Average 3 to 5 measurements taken at say ½ meter in several locations on and around “on axis” all at the same distance.
You will be spatially averaging the speaker radiation over some area which will reduce the grass of a measurement taken at one point in space and making it more likely to represent the power output of the speaker (obviously doing it outside in an open quiet place would be the best but usable data can be gleaned this way). Start eqing by cutting peaks, don’t address tilt or shelving now, just scrape the warts off what you can measure that is unquestionably the loudspeaker, not reflections, not the room etc.
Doing this in a room is more difficult of local things which are room / reflection related. You can’t fix a problem caused by a reflected version of the direct sound because that time related issue is not minimum phase.
Do you have an fir convolver like mini dsp drc?
AS these radiate like a single driver, dsp convolution and proper measurements lets one take it a step farther. Here was 20 min work using Rephase and mini dsp drc.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gmlav22qdy67ukf/sh50 in livingroom with and without fir.png?dl=0
Even more than eq, it is really important to have good measurements or you will be fixing things you shouldn’t fix, that aren’t fixable.
Patrick I wish we had a trade show out in California you could go to, some day I would like to meet you.
Hi Nate, like Patrick says, one can see the acoustic effect of the holes if one measures the horn without holes and then adding them. The effect of the holes on the horns hf radiation is minimized by A placing them in the corners at a optimum distance and B making them as small and short as practical.
Best,
Tom Danley
Merry Christmas
Thanks Tom. I've been studying the Synergy for a couple years now and I have a pretty good idea of how they work.......I'm just a "gotta see the data to believe it" kinda guy.
That said, it was a diy Synergy build thread a few years ago that got me interested in high eff speakers. Before that I never gave horns/waveguides any thought and it's been downhill ever since
. Thank you for your contributions and insight over the years. I'm learning a lot!
That said, it was a diy Synergy build thread a few years ago that got me interested in high eff speakers. Before that I never gave horns/waveguides any thought and it's been downhill ever since
. Thank you for your contributions and insight over the years. I'm learning a lot!
For me, the biggest revelation was that you can get a soundstage that's dramatically wider than the speaker locations. The Vandys do this too, but only away from the back walls.
It makes me think that I was close to getting it right in 2009, but I made a mistake: you need to be equidistant from the midranges, all four of them. Even a path length difference of SIX centimeters is unacceptable. This is because six centimeter is equivalent to ninety degrees of phase shift if your crossover is at 1400hz.
Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet but I don't get what you're saying here. How are you possibly going to get that kind of path length difference from the 4 mids tightly grouped around the throat? Even at the extent of the speaker axis that shouldn't be a problem. It's kinda the crux of the design..... in fact, that shouldn't be a problem for any speaker (properly designed) as long as you have enough integration distance and are near the design axis. It's just that the synergy should do it better.
I'm going to mothball MM for the moment. It might come back (it was sitting in my garage for close to a year when I took another crack at it.)
In the meantime, I'll get into some of my soundstaging ideas here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/266723-black-mirror.html
If anyone wants to build Monster Massive, here's what you need:
1) that Pyle clone of the JBL progressive transition waveguide
2) four Dayton ND91s
3) a Vifa XT25
3) a 15" woofer. I'm using a TC Sounds 15"
The number of amp channels is a bit tricky. I'm actually running the tweeter and the woofer on the same amp channel, and I have some passive components inline to passively filter the tweeter. (a cap and a resistor.)
So the tweeter crossover is a passive-active hybrid.
Here's the config file for MiniDSP: View attachment code1.txt
1) that Pyle clone of the JBL progressive transition waveguide
2) four Dayton ND91s
3) a Vifa XT25
3) a 15" woofer. I'm using a TC Sounds 15"
The number of amp channels is a bit tricky. I'm actually running the tweeter and the woofer on the same amp channel, and I have some passive components inline to passively filter the tweeter. (a cap and a resistor.)
So the tweeter crossover is a passive-active hybrid.
Here's the config file for MiniDSP: View attachment code1.txt
Last edited by a moderator:
Tonally they're very similar. The SH50s image better. The treble on MM is cleaner.
Cheap. I don't want to say how much, because they gave me a deal. But it wasn't much at all. If you can afford to rent a car for a weekend, you can afford to rent some SH50s.
Take a look at Danley's dealer network; there are companies all over the place that have these in their stable. (That's how I found my pair; just went through their dealer network and started calling people until I found two in my neck of the woods.)
Between the two Danley dealers one in San Antonio and one in Austin("Live music capital"), neither of them know of any rental places that carry Danley, nor do they know of any Danley installs in the area. They "mostly only use their DSP product". On a side note, after that excursion failed I thought I would see if I could hunt down some JBL M2 to have a listen...no luck. I digress...
After renting the Danley SH50s, I offered to buy them.
The owners declined to sell them to me.
On eBay, I noticed that they have them for sale now:
Pair of (2) Danley SH50 Speakers | eBay
These are the exact same speakers that were measured in this thread.
Here's a posting technique tip from moderation.When long code is to be posted or long spice models etc. there is the # in the Go Advanced answer menu that wraps code tags around selected text.
So those huge miniDSP code posts could have looked like this (up to 30000 characters long per post).
Code:
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</item>Attachments
Hmmm. Strange they didn't want to sell them then, but do now.
Could just be the instabilities involved with running a small business. Sometimes you run quickly ahead, other ties you do whatever you can to raise funds or optimize stock selection; or sometime you have to just fold.
John, are you going to make them an offer? You might get lucky, who know?
TBH you kinda ruined me on Danley Synergy horns.
I think the DSL SH-50 sounds significantly better than the Lambda Unity horns.
But your Synergy Horns are "neck and neck" with the real thing. Although a lot of people have built speakers that LOOK like a Synergy Horn, I think a big part of the magic is in the crossover. I think the crossover is your Synergy Horns is exceptionally well done.
TLDR: if it was 2015 I'd probably buy these, but in 2017 I'm more inclined to build something like your speakers. Smaller footprint, looks better, sound is equal to the SH-50s IMHO. Note that the two speakers don't sound the same; the SH-50 does some things really well, but it's not perfect.
I think the DSL SH-50 sounds significantly better than the Lambda Unity horns.
But your Synergy Horns are "neck and neck" with the real thing. Although a lot of people have built speakers that LOOK like a Synergy Horn, I think a big part of the magic is in the crossover. I think the crossover is your Synergy Horns is exceptionally well done.
TLDR: if it was 2015 I'd probably buy these, but in 2017 I'm more inclined to build something like your speakers. Smaller footprint, looks better, sound is equal to the SH-50s IMHO. Note that the two speakers don't sound the same; the SH-50 does some things really well, but it's not perfect.
- Status
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