missing woofers in the stratus golds
Hello everyone,
I am looking for a replacement pair of the woofers or equivalent for the golds. i got a pair missing the woofers. the guy said they got damaged so he tossed them
Any good drop in options?
Thanks for all the great info on these pages. i was able to get tweeter diaphragms based on petes info.
thanks again
Phil
Hello everyone,
I am looking for a replacement pair of the woofers or equivalent for the golds. i got a pair missing the woofers. the guy said they got damaged so he tossed them
Any good drop in options?
Thanks for all the great info on these pages. i was able to get tweeter diaphragms based on petes info.
thanks again
Phil
Have you called PSB? Will they give you the T&S parameters if they don't have replacements?
From memory, Fs = 28, Vas is about equal to the enclosure volume, Re = 3.3.
It is a very rugged driver, with I think a 56 oz magnet. It is custom on a stamped frame with a rubber edge.
This in 4 ohm might work well, but it is 8 ohm and will not work:
The Madisound Speaker Store
It is such a refined design that you should really try to get the correct drivers, or at least match the T&S parameters as best as you can.
It would be excellent if you could get the old woofers even if they are completely blown. Do you think he might have tossed them into his basement? You could measure things like the voice coil wind length and the cone mass if you could get them.
From memory, Fs = 28, Vas is about equal to the enclosure volume, Re = 3.3.
It is a very rugged driver, with I think a 56 oz magnet. It is custom on a stamped frame with a rubber edge.
This in 4 ohm might work well, but it is 8 ohm and will not work:
The Madisound Speaker Store
It is such a refined design that you should really try to get the correct drivers, or at least match the T&S parameters as best as you can.
It would be excellent if you could get the old woofers even if they are completely blown. Do you think he might have tossed them into his basement? You could measure things like the voice coil wind length and the cone mass if you could get them.
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Thank you
Thank you for the quick reply and the information. I called PSB and i can get the woofers at a nearly a whopping $300 each. Yikes i havent seen a metal frame woofer sell for that much anywhere. I will look for used market replacements or try to match the parameters.
thanks again!
Phil
Thank you for the quick reply and the information. I called PSB and i can get the woofers at a nearly a whopping $300 each.
Yikes i havent seen a metal frame woofer sell for that much anywhere. I will look for used market replacements or try to match the parameters.thanks again!
Phil
I hate to do this, but that price is really rediculous. You might try these with 15 to 25g of mass added to the cone, at this price you could even use them while you shop for a used pair of originals:
10" - 150 Watt at $12.50 ea
Speaker Stuff
The DC resistance and Vas are about right, Fs is too high and you'd add mass to lower it.
Nickles stuck on with Mortite should work for testing. Try to get it close to the VC near the dust cap to minimize cone flex.
This is also not quite right but is at least 4 ohm and in the ball park. I also do not think it is as rugged and being metric will probably require "adjusting" the hole, check dimensions:
The Madisound Speaker Store
You might look around for low cost auto sound 4 ohm woofers. The low end units from Polk, Fosgate, Infinity or JBL might do, check the specs.
10" - 150 Watt at $12.50 ea
Speaker Stuff
The DC resistance and Vas are about right, Fs is too high and you'd add mass to lower it.
Nickles stuck on with Mortite should work for testing. Try to get it close to the VC near the dust cap to minimize cone flex.
This is also not quite right but is at least 4 ohm and in the ball park. I also do not think it is as rugged and being metric will probably require "adjusting" the hole, check dimensions:
The Madisound Speaker Store
You might look around for low cost auto sound 4 ohm woofers. The low end units from Polk, Fosgate, Infinity or JBL might do, check the specs.
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Going to try!
Pete thank you so much. i am going to try these and add some weight.
I will probably buy both pairs and try them both. Some much less expensive than the mfg. cost.
I like the aluminum cone and cast frame on the scan speak.
Interesting the other woofers like like the ones in an infinity sm120 or 112
or even some of the other models. I may even have some laying around...
Pete you are amazing and always so helpful. I personally appreciate your time sincerely.
Phil
Pete thank you so much. i am going to try these and add some weight.
I will probably buy both pairs and try them both. Some much less expensive than the mfg. cost.
I like the aluminum cone and cast frame on the scan speak.
Interesting the other woofers like like the ones in an infinity sm120 or 112
or even some of the other models. I may even have some laying around...
Pete you are amazing and always so helpful. I personally appreciate your time sincerely.
Phil
Thanks Phil, very kind words.
OK, I like this even more and I believe that it fits the standard frame that the PSB was also built on:
PRIME Subwoofers - R1S410 - Rockford Fosgate®
The only thing special about the PSB woofer was that it was so well engineered; nothing exotic that I could see. I did not measure the drivers Xmax but if I had to guess I'd go with 6mm just as with that Rockford. I also believe that the Rockford will be very rugged given that it is designed for autosound apps. I've never seen response curves so I don't know how well it plays up into the midrange. While it says optimized for sealed, it should also work very well in a low tuned vented such as the PSBs, it even has a good Qts figure.
Carefully check the dimensions on that Scan, I think you'd really have to do some cutting to make it fit.
I bought mine used and the suspensions for both woofers had stiffened up badly. The rubber edge looked shiny as if the previous owner had put Armorall or something on them. I called PSB and they would not talk to me much about it so I sent a registered letter to Paul Barton and he actually called me at the office. He confirmed that the Fs was way off and suggested that there was something wrong with the measurement, I told him that the NHT 1259s that I had and most other drivers measured fine. He suggested that I send in the woofers but I never got around to it. I confirmed in simulation that this didn't hurt the response too badly and they've always sounded VERY good to me. The fact that the cone mass does not shift helps a lot since it is more important than Vas.
Hope you recap the electros since they've probably been driven hard.
OK, I like this even more and I believe that it fits the standard frame that the PSB was also built on:
PRIME Subwoofers - R1S410 - Rockford Fosgate®
The only thing special about the PSB woofer was that it was so well engineered; nothing exotic that I could see. I did not measure the drivers Xmax but if I had to guess I'd go with 6mm just as with that Rockford. I also believe that the Rockford will be very rugged given that it is designed for autosound apps. I've never seen response curves so I don't know how well it plays up into the midrange. While it says optimized for sealed, it should also work very well in a low tuned vented such as the PSBs, it even has a good Qts figure.
Carefully check the dimensions on that Scan, I think you'd really have to do some cutting to make it fit.
I bought mine used and the suspensions for both woofers had stiffened up badly. The rubber edge looked shiny as if the previous owner had put Armorall or something on them. I called PSB and they would not talk to me much about it so I sent a registered letter to Paul Barton and he actually called me at the office. He confirmed that the Fs was way off and suggested that there was something wrong with the measurement, I told him that the NHT 1259s that I had and most other drivers measured fine. He suggested that I send in the woofers but I never got around to it. I confirmed in simulation that this didn't hurt the response too badly and they've always sounded VERY good to me. The fact that the cone mass does not shift helps a lot since it is more important than Vas.
Hope you recap the electros since they've probably been driven hard.
Look nearly perfect
Pete! Those are going to be great! I almost ordered the others, glad I didn't.
These are also not expensive and seem to get fairly good reviews from the car audio guys anyway. I have a bid on a pair on the bay now. Either way $80 shipped new is a great buy and I should have a pair in the next couple days.
I can post my impressions after I get them loaded. These have a slightly less sensitivity which seems it will match better than the original actually. From the research I did the original had a bump in the low bass depending on placement?
Thank you again Pete!
Phil
Pete! Those are going to be great! I almost ordered the others, glad I didn't.
These are also not expensive and seem to get fairly good reviews from the car audio guys anyway. I have a bid on a pair on the bay now. Either way $80 shipped new is a great buy and I should have a pair in the next couple days.
I can post my impressions after I get them loaded. These have a slightly less sensitivity which seems it will match better than the original actually. From the research I did the original had a bump in the low bass depending on placement?
Thank you again Pete!
Phil
Crossovers
Almost forgot, yes I will check out the crossovers as well thanks for that tip.
I haven't looked at the crossovers yet so I don't know what quality parts are in there. I was working on some venders teens for a friend and saw the cheapest parts I had ever seen in there. Burned resistors and caps galore. Hopefully psd is not so cheap on crossover parts.
Phil
Almost forgot, yes I will check out the crossovers as well thanks for that tip.
I haven't looked at the crossovers yet so I don't know what quality parts are in there. I was working on some venders teens for a friend and saw the cheapest parts I had ever seen in there. Burned resistors and caps galore. Hopefully psd is not so cheap on crossover parts.
Phil
Please let us know how they sound. You might want to try adding 1 to 2 ohms between the woofer + and the mid/tweeter + on the biamp terminals instead of the jumper. Drive the system from the woofer terminals of course. I believe that the PSB woofer was VERY efficient and the Rockford not as much.
I went back to my notes as described below:
Both of the woofers had a measured Fs of about 49 Hz, I called Barton and he confirmed that they should be about equal to the box tuning of about 28 Hz - obviously they are way off. Here are the parameters as measured with Laud:
Fs = 49.9
Vas 34.2 l
Qes .599
Qms 3.25
Rvc 3.3
Sd .031 m^2
Qts .506
Mms 40.1 g
Bl 8.32
No .68%
Eff 90.4 1W/Rvc
Vsen 94.2 2.83V
Of interest is the very high voltage sensitivity which does not change due to the compliance error. The Q figures are high but this is due to the compliance error since they are dependent on Fs. The crossover inductor is air core and of high resistance (less copper saves money), .9 ohms and this must be taken into account in any simulations of the LF response and system sensitivity. Adding .9 ohms results in the following new parameters:
Qts .618
No .54%
Eff 89.3
Vsen 92.1 2.83V
I used a spread sheet to recompute the T&S parameters with the correct Fs, I loosened up the suspension with a correction increasing Vas by 70l we then have for the driver without the resistance of the crossover inductor:
Fs 28.6
Vas 104.2
Qes .343
Qms 1.862
Qts .29
and with .9 ohms added to Rvc:
Qes .437
Qms 1.862
Qts .354
We see that by correcting Vas and Rvc we have an alignment somewhere in between a B4 and B6 since Fs = Fb as with both a B4 and B6 but Vb would be about 100 for the B4 and 50 for a B6, it is about 60l. Qts with the .9 ohms added is in the ball park for these alignments at .437
I believe that the very high woofer voltage sensitivity is used to run the woofer a bit high on output as part of the baffle step compensation, then it being about 5 dB down at 28 Hz relative to midband becomes something more like 3 dB down. PSB rates the systems as -1 dB at 36 Hz:
PSB Stratus Gold loudspeaker Specifications | Stereophile.com
The smaller Vas of the Rockford will give it more output at 28 Hz being closer to a B4 alignment, but it will be down a few dB in the upper end of its range. One could pick up perhaps a dB by going to a large gauge cored woofer inductor, but I really prefer air core.
Or as I said, simply pad the mid/tweeter down a dB or 2.
I went back to my notes as described below:
Both of the woofers had a measured Fs of about 49 Hz, I called Barton and he confirmed that they should be about equal to the box tuning of about 28 Hz - obviously they are way off. Here are the parameters as measured with Laud:
Fs = 49.9
Vas 34.2 l
Qes .599
Qms 3.25
Rvc 3.3
Sd .031 m^2
Qts .506
Mms 40.1 g
Bl 8.32
No .68%
Eff 90.4 1W/Rvc
Vsen 94.2 2.83V
Of interest is the very high voltage sensitivity which does not change due to the compliance error. The Q figures are high but this is due to the compliance error since they are dependent on Fs. The crossover inductor is air core and of high resistance (less copper saves money), .9 ohms and this must be taken into account in any simulations of the LF response and system sensitivity. Adding .9 ohms results in the following new parameters:
Qts .618
No .54%
Eff 89.3
Vsen 92.1 2.83V
I used a spread sheet to recompute the T&S parameters with the correct Fs, I loosened up the suspension with a correction increasing Vas by 70l we then have for the driver without the resistance of the crossover inductor:
Fs 28.6
Vas 104.2
Qes .343
Qms 1.862
Qts .29
and with .9 ohms added to Rvc:
Qes .437
Qms 1.862
Qts .354
We see that by correcting Vas and Rvc we have an alignment somewhere in between a B4 and B6 since Fs = Fb as with both a B4 and B6 but Vb would be about 100 for the B4 and 50 for a B6, it is about 60l. Qts with the .9 ohms added is in the ball park for these alignments at .437
I believe that the very high woofer voltage sensitivity is used to run the woofer a bit high on output as part of the baffle step compensation, then it being about 5 dB down at 28 Hz relative to midband becomes something more like 3 dB down. PSB rates the systems as -1 dB at 36 Hz:
PSB Stratus Gold loudspeaker Specifications | Stereophile.com
The smaller Vas of the Rockford will give it more output at 28 Hz being closer to a B4 alignment, but it will be down a few dB in the upper end of its range. One could pick up perhaps a dB by going to a large gauge cored woofer inductor, but I really prefer air core.
Or as I said, simply pad the mid/tweeter down a dB or 2.
Measurements
Thanks again Pete, that will help a lot. Great idea to use the resistor externally like that. I should have the drivers in the next couple of days. The extra work you have done for me I appreciate very much. It will be great to be using these. I have had them sitting for quite some time.
Phil
Thanks again Pete, that will help a lot. Great idea to use the resistor externally like that. I should have the drivers in the next couple of days. The extra work you have done for me I appreciate very much. It will be great to be using these. I have had them sitting for quite some time.
Phil
.185 ohm DCR woofer inductor:
The Madisound Speaker Store
I calculate a 1.6 dB increase in voltage sensitivity as compared to the .9 ohm inductor, quite a difference.
A bucking magnet can also be epoxied on the back of the woofer to gain .5 dB or so.
The Madisound Speaker Store
I calculate a 1.6 dB increase in voltage sensitivity as compared to the .9 ohm inductor, quite a difference.
A bucking magnet can also be epoxied on the back of the woofer to gain .5 dB or so.
Nice option
Thank you Pete hmm I like those 2options. They are more permanent and I won't be cutting into the already somewhat low sensitivity of the system. I haven't added a bucking magnet before but I get how it works. Just glue it on with opposing poles correct? I have to clamp it or weight it until it glues. I am getting a bit anxious now to see how this all turns out, I have a feeling it's going to be very good
Thank you Pete hmm I like those 2options. They are more permanent and I won't be cutting into the already somewhat low sensitivity of the system. I haven't added a bucking magnet before but I get how it works. Just glue it on with opposing poles correct? I have to clamp it or weight it until it glues. I am getting a bit anxious now to see how this all turns out, I have a feeling it's going to be very good
I'm curious to hear about how they turn out.
The stray fields are not very well focused and oddly the last time I tried it, IIRC, the bucking magnet stuck on both ways so I was not sure which way helped as far as sensitivity goes without measuring, which I did. You could wire a 1.5V battery in phase to the terminals and then try the magnet either way, stronger should cause the cone to move out more and vice versa when backwards - I don't know if the difference will be enough to see it. You could also try with a test tone from a CD and a simple SPL meter, but you have to keep the distances and locations precise to get any meaningful reading. I think the Rockford has a bumped back plate and so you'd either need a large enough bucking magnet or a ring of several smaller ones - might not be worth the trouble.
More on bucking magnets:
Scan-Speak
The stray fields are not very well focused and oddly the last time I tried it, IIRC, the bucking magnet stuck on both ways so I was not sure which way helped as far as sensitivity goes without measuring, which I did. You could wire a 1.5V battery in phase to the terminals and then try the magnet either way, stronger should cause the cone to move out more and vice versa when backwards - I don't know if the difference will be enough to see it. You could also try with a test tone from a CD and a simple SPL meter, but you have to keep the distances and locations precise to get any meaningful reading. I think the Rockford has a bumped back plate and so you'd either need a large enough bucking magnet or a ring of several smaller ones - might not be worth the trouble.
More on bucking magnets:
Scan-Speak
Pete you are amazing! i wonder if i have some old speakers with big bucking magnets encased it a metal cup. the kind that goes over the whole thing. Seems klipsch used those a lot as well as other companies. Maybe the 1-2 ohm resistor option is best and just putting in the better inductor. I will have to do some experimenting when the woofers come. They should be here in a day or 2. I got a brand new pair shipped with free shipping for around $85. Bargain i think for the bit of effort they will take and compared to cost of original. I will keep posting and take some pics as well.
Phil
Phil
PSB Gold Crossover update
Came in to post the progress on the rebuild and was happy to see the post was still alive and Pete is again sharing his knowledge of the Golds with others.
Yea, it's been a while since I posted but, I have pictures.
Pete I took your advice and used 1% film caps in the mid range along with the added resistance. Upgraded the tweeter circuit with Clarity caps and broke up the 2-100mfd NP caps in the mid range as shown. I also doubled the resistors on the mid range to increase the power handling.
Translated into...........
And then it went together like this.....
What a mess! I wish I had larger solder tabs. The crossover will be mounted outside the enclosure. I still need to stabilize the resistors with a piece of heavy aluminum that will also act as a heat sink.They still run hot on the midrange when I crank it up.
I think the speaker sounds great. The bottom end is tight and as tuneful as I remember it was. The midrange is CLEAN with plenty of detail. I can hear into the music more now it seems.The top end blends well with the mids.
I did a spl run using the RS analog meter and a Stereophile test cd. The meter was 6' from the speaker centered on the midrange. Did the test in the basement with a dimension of 23'x52'x8'. Here is the result, for what it's worth.
I should have a chance to work on the other crossover this weekend. Then I will be able to check out the depth and imaging. It shows a lot of promise.
Pete, thanks for getting involved with my project. I really appreciate it.
Phil, I am anxious to hear how those woofers sound.
Tony K
Came in to post the progress on the rebuild and was happy to see the post was still alive and Pete is again sharing his knowledge of the Golds with others.
Yea, it's been a while since I posted but, I have pictures.
Pete I took your advice and used 1% film caps in the mid range along with the added resistance. Upgraded the tweeter circuit with Clarity caps and broke up the 2-100mfd NP caps in the mid range as shown. I also doubled the resistors on the mid range to increase the power handling.
Translated into...........
And then it went together like this.....
What a mess! I wish I had larger solder tabs. The crossover will be mounted outside the enclosure. I still need to stabilize the resistors with a piece of heavy aluminum that will also act as a heat sink.They still run hot on the midrange when I crank it up.
I think the speaker sounds great. The bottom end is tight and as tuneful as I remember it was. The midrange is CLEAN with plenty of detail. I can hear into the music more now it seems.The top end blends well with the mids.
I did a spl run using the RS analog meter and a Stereophile test cd. The meter was 6' from the speaker centered on the midrange. Did the test in the basement with a dimension of 23'x52'x8'. Here is the result, for what it's worth.
I should have a chance to work on the other crossover this weekend. Then I will be able to check out the depth and imaging. It shows a lot of promise.
Pete, thanks for getting involved with my project. I really appreciate it.
Phil, I am anxious to hear how those woofers sound.
Tony K
Hi Pete and Tony,
I just got notification that my woofers were delivered to my house today! I will snap pics and keep you posted on my progress. If i have time i will work on these tonight. Kinda of a busy hectic day for me, so we'll see. Those are pics and drawings of your gold crossovers?
Pete also recommended to me to check mine so i will be doing that as well.
Thanks
Phil
I just got notification that my woofers were delivered to my house today! I will snap pics and keep you posted on my progress. If i have time i will work on these tonight. Kinda of a busy hectic day for me, so we'll see. Those are pics and drawings of your gold crossovers?
Pete also recommended to me to check mine so i will be doing that as well.
Thanks
Phil
Installed and listening!
Pete and Tony
I finally got a chance to install the new drivers last night. I took alot of pictures and picked 6 or so to post here. The previous owner really did a number on the cabinets when he pulled the original drivers for whatever reason and installed others. I am not complaining as it seems i paid $40 for them when i picked them up a couple years ago. I almost junked them last year and for some reason i didn't. I am now glad I wrote and Pete replied. The are remarkably smooth and the subs you picked Pete integrate so well its hard to believe for the price. Pete thank you so much for your knowledge and sharing it.
I have a lot of very nice gear and speakers and these are now right up there with some of my better ones.
Thanks again.
Phil
Pete and Tony
I finally got a chance to install the new drivers last night. I took alot of pictures and picked 6 or so to post here. The previous owner really did a number on the cabinets when he pulled the original drivers for whatever reason and installed others. I am not complaining as it seems i paid $40 for them when i picked them up a couple years ago. I almost junked them last year and for some reason i didn't. I am now glad I wrote and Pete replied. The are remarkably smooth and the subs you picked Pete integrate so well its hard to believe for the price. Pete thank you so much for your knowledge and sharing it.
I have a lot of very nice gear and speakers and these are now right up there with some of my better ones.
Thanks again.
Phil
Nice work gentlemen, both of you, I'm really pleased to see that I could help and that you both had some nice results! I had the info for a long time but I didn't want to put it out there until the Stratus Gold was discontinued or someone needed it badly.
I like your crossover Tony, very nice work!
It seems that cloning it would be fairly easy if the Rockford woofer works well, and the very close Vifa mid is still available:
The Madisound Speaker Store
I'd probably use this Vifa tweeter since it has about the right Fs, Rvc is a bit low but sensitivity is higher so just put a 1.6 ohm resistor in series with it to present the correct impedance to the network and cut down the sensitivity:
The Madisound Speaker Store
I think PSB even uses that tweeter in their more recent products.
Phil, how many watts are you driving them with?
If you have not recapped them, I think it is best to play them at a low level for 2 or 3 days, then increase it for another 2 days, and keep doing it to reform the caps. No drive for a few hours is good also, or just don't drive them hard until you recap the NPEs.
Watch the midrange cones for high motion if you do crank them up since if the caps are leaky and breaking down the crossover point will move lower. I would not use a noise source for long periods of time when you turn it up since that can send too much continuous power to all the drivers.
I'm curious to hear how they sound when driven hard, if you do that sort of thing. 200 to 300W peaks into the 4 ohm load. I usually run mine with an Adcom that does 325W RMS/ch into 4 ohms and I do see the clip lights during high power testing.
I like your crossover Tony, very nice work!
It seems that cloning it would be fairly easy if the Rockford woofer works well, and the very close Vifa mid is still available:
The Madisound Speaker Store
I'd probably use this Vifa tweeter since it has about the right Fs, Rvc is a bit low but sensitivity is higher so just put a 1.6 ohm resistor in series with it to present the correct impedance to the network and cut down the sensitivity:
The Madisound Speaker Store
I think PSB even uses that tweeter in their more recent products.
Phil, how many watts are you driving them with?
If you have not recapped them, I think it is best to play them at a low level for 2 or 3 days, then increase it for another 2 days, and keep doing it to reform the caps. No drive for a few hours is good also, or just don't drive them hard until you recap the NPEs.
Watch the midrange cones for high motion if you do crank them up since if the caps are leaky and breaking down the crossover point will move lower. I would not use a noise source for long periods of time when you turn it up since that can send too much continuous power to all the drivers.
I'm curious to hear how they sound when driven hard, if you do that sort of thing. 200 to 300W peaks into the 4 ohm load. I usually run mine with an Adcom that does 325W RMS/ch into 4 ohms and I do see the clip lights during high power testing.
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good stuff!
Thank you again Pete,
don't know what i would have done without your excellent help. Reading many blogs you seem to always go way above and beyond to help your fellow audio nuts. So my sincere thanks to you.
I am not seeing the pics i tried to upload. i will have to try again.
It looked like they were uploading. You wont know what i had to deal with if you cant see the pics. I just picked up a denon dcd1500 yesterday for $7 so i want to hear it through the psb's today sometime.
The cloning project sounds really fun. I may just build up some crossovers make some very nice cabinets in maybe more of a pyramid style and load them with those drivers. That will be a very nice $300ish project.
Tony keep up the good work and post more of your impressions.
Thanks!
Phil
Thank you again Pete,
don't know what i would have done without your excellent help. Reading many blogs you seem to always go way above and beyond to help your fellow audio nuts. So my sincere thanks to you.
I am not seeing the pics i tried to upload. i will have to try again.
It looked like they were uploading. You wont know what i had to deal with if you cant see the pics. I just picked up a denon dcd1500 yesterday for $7 so i want to hear it through the psb's today sometime.
The cloning project sounds really fun. I may just build up some crossovers make some very nice cabinets in maybe more of a pyramid style and load them with those drivers. That will be a very nice $300ish project.
Tony keep up the good work and post more of your impressions.
Thanks!
Phil