keantoken
I suspect that you are trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Although the factors you discuss are real, they have already been engineered to the point of diminishing effect in good drivers (and less so in budget speakers). What it comes down to is that you get what you pay for. If you are budget constrained (as I am) then I suggest you turn to the used goods market.
I suspect that you are trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Although the factors you discuss are real, they have already been engineered to the point of diminishing effect in good drivers (and less so in budget speakers). What it comes down to is that you get what you pay for. If you are budget constrained (as I am) then I suggest you turn to the used goods market.
I shared some of the confusion of soongsc, as you were asking "technically speaking" but using subjective terms. It appeared like you were basically wanting to "judge a book by feeling it's cover" so to speak.
Since it is usually more expensive to use certain materials, that can be an indicator of better quality. A stamped steel frame is cheaper than a cast or forged frame, etc.
Famous name speaker manufacturers are not above selling products with their name on it, spec-ed to the lowest price per unit demands of Wal-Mart.
And drivers made for the auto competition world make their stuff cosmetically appealing ( this has no performance/practical advantage ).
* If a frame "pings" I apply dampening to it.
Since it is usually more expensive to use certain materials, that can be an indicator of better quality. A stamped steel frame is cheaper than a cast or forged frame, etc.
Famous name speaker manufacturers are not above selling products with their name on it, spec-ed to the lowest price per unit demands of Wal-Mart.
And drivers made for the auto competition world make their stuff cosmetically appealing ( this has no performance/practical advantage ).
* If a frame "pings" I apply dampening to it.
I think I have enough information. I'll leave the rest up to future experience.
It seems to me that more precise speakers can sound lifeless because of the lack of resonance. In real life most sounds are a result of complex resonances and so are amazingly hard to reproduce with something that does not have similar properties. Boxes and systems can be built to resonate and make use of the character of their materials which will add "fullness and life" to the system. However, this approach seems to me to be most fitting for instruments and performed music as the instruments themselves are made of similar materials. For me, the life and fullness comes from hearing the very minutest sounds which reflect the fullness of the original music. I have not been able to listen to a paper cone speaker that met my requirements, and my kevlars remain a worthy compromise to my ears. I have not finished treating the papercones I have, but they seem to be responding well to treatment and sound much better. There still seems to be a "noise floor" however that I can not hear with my kevlars. It could just be greater detail with delicate sounds but I prefer the conciseness of my current setup.
Over all, it seems to me that you can have kevlars that will reproduce sound accurately but it takes $ to reach the fullness that might be provided by paper cones. With paper cones and resonant system, fullness and life can be added to the music where detail fails. I have no doubt it is possible to have both in a system, but with my budget, this would be hard.
I mainly listen to electronic music which tends to have lots of highs and harmonics and effects (though I don't go for the "ambience" thing). Typically the instruments used are not as rich as real instruments. I compose such music also (or try
) and so it is important to have an "uncolored" system that will show me exactly how much character my instruments have. With good instruments, electronica can have every bit as much character and experience as performed music (at least this is my opinion).
Thanks,
- keantoken
It seems to me that more precise speakers can sound lifeless because of the lack of resonance. In real life most sounds are a result of complex resonances and so are amazingly hard to reproduce with something that does not have similar properties. Boxes and systems can be built to resonate and make use of the character of their materials which will add "fullness and life" to the system. However, this approach seems to me to be most fitting for instruments and performed music as the instruments themselves are made of similar materials. For me, the life and fullness comes from hearing the very minutest sounds which reflect the fullness of the original music. I have not been able to listen to a paper cone speaker that met my requirements, and my kevlars remain a worthy compromise to my ears. I have not finished treating the papercones I have, but they seem to be responding well to treatment and sound much better. There still seems to be a "noise floor" however that I can not hear with my kevlars. It could just be greater detail with delicate sounds but I prefer the conciseness of my current setup.
Over all, it seems to me that you can have kevlars that will reproduce sound accurately but it takes $ to reach the fullness that might be provided by paper cones. With paper cones and resonant system, fullness and life can be added to the music where detail fails. I have no doubt it is possible to have both in a system, but with my budget, this would be hard.
I mainly listen to electronic music which tends to have lots of highs and harmonics and effects (though I don't go for the "ambience" thing). Typically the instruments used are not as rich as real instruments. I compose such music also (or try
) and so it is important to have an "uncolored" system that will show me exactly how much character my instruments have. With good instruments, electronica can have every bit as much character and experience as performed music (at least this is my opinion). Thanks,
- keantoken
Keantoken,
in the first part of your post you talk about that you want added resonances from the transducers (not generally a good thing for HiFi) and in the last part you say you want an "uncolored" system, right?
Resonances and nonlinearities masks and distort the audio that you are trying to reproduce. In instrumentation amplifiers/speaker such as a Marshall combo for your Strat for example it's different since that is a part of teh sound created.
You need to decide if you want an accurate system or a system that imparts the same fingerprint on everything you throw at it.
Clean, low distortion, "precise" and linear gear in the playback chain is not lifeless, you don't need coloration since the records you play back have tons of different colors in them in a million of combinations and versions. When you add color on your own that color will not likely fit all recordings the same way but instead the effect will likely be a rectification process where everything gets the same color.. some call it "sameness" and I think that's a good description.
/Peter
in the first part of your post you talk about that you want added resonances from the transducers (not generally a good thing for HiFi) and in the last part you say you want an "uncolored" system, right?
Resonances and nonlinearities masks and distort the audio that you are trying to reproduce. In instrumentation amplifiers/speaker such as a Marshall combo for your Strat for example it's different since that is a part of teh sound created.
You need to decide if you want an accurate system or a system that imparts the same fingerprint on everything you throw at it.
Clean, low distortion, "precise" and linear gear in the playback chain is not lifeless, you don't need coloration since the records you play back have tons of different colors in them in a million of combinations and versions. When you add color on your own that color will not likely fit all recordings the same way but instead the effect will likely be a rectification process where everything gets the same color.. some call it "sameness" and I think that's a good description.
/Peter
What exactly you mean by precise, i am not sure, but often a quest for flat FR at the expense of everything else will sacrifice downward dynamic range (also true of XOs). Inability to reproduce the subtle low-level details that flesh things out are one of the things that suck the life out.
Resonances interfere with the ability to have good DDR.
dave
I can't believe you guys!
2 YEARS LATER you come back and THEN say these things? Why are you even looking at a 2 year old thread? Surely I am afforded the privilege of changing my beliefs in that amount of time, as any sane person would.
But I digress. I still haven't learned much, although now I realize looks and construction can only tell you basic things about the speaker and what it will sound like.
One thought that just crossed my mind is, at resonance, a speaker will be most efficient. Even if the frequency response is flat there might we say that sonics at just that place will be more detailed because less energy is wasted in heat/noise and less power drawn from the amp? Am I right on this?
- keantoken
2 YEARS LATER you come back and THEN say these things? Why are you even looking at a 2 year old thread? Surely I am afforded the privilege of changing my beliefs in that amount of time, as any sane person would.
But I digress. I still haven't learned much, although now I realize looks and construction can only tell you basic things about the speaker and what it will sound like.
One thought that just crossed my mind is, at resonance, a speaker will be most efficient. Even if the frequency response is flat there might we say that sonics at just that place will be more detailed because less energy is wasted in heat/noise and less power drawn from the amp? Am I right on this?
- keantoken
You are right. A speaker is most efficient at resonance, and the THD+N level will be minimum at resonance than it will at other frequencies, the sonics will be more accurate at that particular frequency(considering an infinite baffle or sealed enclosure). But keep in mind that this is true only upto the "Nominal" power of the speaker, and somewhat true upto the "RMS" power handling, considering the amplifier is capable of supplying that much average power.
About "less power drawn from the amp", no individual frequency draws "more" or "less" power, the "signal" as a whole draws power, again considering there is no filtering of the signal and the response is ''flat". But in case the recording is heavily 'bass' biased in a fullrange signal, beyond the 'nominal' power, the amp will clip on the bass line, even as it continues to deliver the mids and highs with minimal distortion upto the RMS power.
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