Hello,
I am hoping someone here has spent some time with pickups for bowed instruments, specifically larger ones like Bass or Cello.
I have previously constructed a few Piezo pickups/preamp for my cello which work great for clean amplification...however whenever i add distortion to the chain, i get crazy feedback. I know this is more or less "unavoidable" but i'm thinking a different pickup system MAY tame it down a bit.
My question involves this magnetic pickup:
https://reverb.com/item/811301-arte...chrome?gclid=CP_I6JuVw9ECFcO4wAodWEQDuA&pla=1
Is it possible to use something like this for a large bowed instrument (placed on the bridge)? If not, have any of you come across a magnetic type pickup (as opposed to piezo sensors) that will work well for an application like this?
Thanks!
I am hoping someone here has spent some time with pickups for bowed instruments, specifically larger ones like Bass or Cello.
I have previously constructed a few Piezo pickups/preamp for my cello which work great for clean amplification...however whenever i add distortion to the chain, i get crazy feedback. I know this is more or less "unavoidable" but i'm thinking a different pickup system MAY tame it down a bit.
My question involves this magnetic pickup:
https://reverb.com/item/811301-arte...chrome?gclid=CP_I6JuVw9ECFcO4wAodWEQDuA&pla=1
Is it possible to use something like this for a large bowed instrument (placed on the bridge)? If not, have any of you come across a magnetic type pickup (as opposed to piezo sensors) that will work well for an application like this?
Thanks!
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Nice price for experiments.
String spacing may be inadequate...much narrower than a cello or upright bass.
I don't know what your budget is, but there is a cello pickup by Headway in the UK called The Band. It's available in the US. Violin/viola version was roughly $150 last I knew. I have seen one in person, but of course wasn't allowed to dissect it to see what was inside. I later learned it apparently has three piezo ceramic discs. It's in a rubber innertube-like wrap with I think velcro. It typically goes around the lower bout at the 'points' or 'corners'. It's said to not need a preamp but if you are trying the low end of a bass with piezos (I don't know freq. range of a cello), a preamp with hi-z (higher than 1 M guitar amp, like 5-10-20 Mohm) input will serve you much better.
This pickup assembly apparently damps the body just enough to discourage feedback, at least in folkier environments. If you have a wall of Marshall stacks behind you any acoustic instrument will have feedback.
If you have a carved instrument the wrap pickup will probably work without fussiness in positioning. Some upright basses (that are affordable) are plywood/laminate...less feedback-prone, but people say The Band is pretty particular about positioning (most complaints are from people with no preamp. Be aware a piezo, as a capacitive sensor, feeding a resistive amp input, forms a high pass filter...too low-Z input and you lose the low end. A magnetic pickup is predominantly inductive so feeding the amp resistive input forms a low pass filter, consistent with complaints about hf loss with long cables, etc.
Talk Bass forum has extensive discussion about Headway's The Band bass version. I noted almost all the complaints were from people trying to get away with no preamp. The market seems to demand marketing that says no preamp is needed, but it's apparent there is a reality gap there.
String spacing may be inadequate...much narrower than a cello or upright bass.
I don't know what your budget is, but there is a cello pickup by Headway in the UK called The Band. It's available in the US. Violin/viola version was roughly $150 last I knew. I have seen one in person, but of course wasn't allowed to dissect it to see what was inside. I later learned it apparently has three piezo ceramic discs. It's in a rubber innertube-like wrap with I think velcro. It typically goes around the lower bout at the 'points' or 'corners'. It's said to not need a preamp but if you are trying the low end of a bass with piezos (I don't know freq. range of a cello), a preamp with hi-z (higher than 1 M guitar amp, like 5-10-20 Mohm) input will serve you much better.
This pickup assembly apparently damps the body just enough to discourage feedback, at least in folkier environments. If you have a wall of Marshall stacks behind you any acoustic instrument will have feedback.
If you have a carved instrument the wrap pickup will probably work without fussiness in positioning. Some upright basses (that are affordable) are plywood/laminate...less feedback-prone, but people say The Band is pretty particular about positioning (most complaints are from people with no preamp. Be aware a piezo, as a capacitive sensor, feeding a resistive amp input, forms a high pass filter...too low-Z input and you lose the low end. A magnetic pickup is predominantly inductive so feeding the amp resistive input forms a low pass filter, consistent with complaints about hf loss with long cables, etc.
Talk Bass forum has extensive discussion about Headway's The Band bass version. I noted almost all the complaints were from people trying to get away with no preamp. The market seems to demand marketing that says no preamp is needed, but it's apparent there is a reality gap there.
Well, only experimentation will give you the answer for your application, but I don't think a magnetic pickup placed right at the bridge will give very 'full' results - it will be very much in the treble range as only the high overtones will be picked up that close to the bridge, which is a 'node' for vibration.
Have you considered placing a magnetic pickup at the end of the fingerboard?
That's where magnetic pickups are placed/attached on acoustic jazz guitars, as you know. The fingerboard doesn't vibrate nearly as much as the top, so resists feedback better. On a guitar, there's a block under the top at the end of the fingerboard, which isn't the case with a cello (with the fingerboard above the top), so there are more possibilities.
On a good cello, you don't want to be making irreversible changes, so the bridge or something attached under the fingerboard would be the targets, I'd think. A block attached with hide glue under the fingerboard could be removed by any capable repair person.
distortion on a cello... hope you succeed and can upload a recording of this i just gotta hear this!
piezo's have incredible high frequency capability maybe a low pass filter could tame things a bit or look at distortion pedals with a sweepable mid freq filter.
i'd also see if you can find what Lee Rocker (Stray Cats) uses for a pickup system.
piezo's have incredible high frequency capability maybe a low pass filter could tame things a bit or look at distortion pedals with a sweepable mid freq filter.
i'd also see if you can find what Lee Rocker (Stray Cats) uses for a pickup system.
Lee Rocker | Bassplayer
This link is not looking like what I expected ��
About halfway into the article the interview discusses his pickups with steel strings and gut strings
This link is not looking like what I expected ��
About halfway into the article the interview discusses his pickups with steel strings and gut strings
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as a old sound dude i used to keep a DOD Fx10 bifet preamp in my mic kit to accomodate the "guest" acoustic player the tone control on it would help solve the usual "mid" howl to get a usable level and buffer the weak output of the piezo's.
shame they're hard to find now...
one of those ahead of a distortion might just do the trick.
shame they're hard to find now...
one of those ahead of a distortion might just do the trick.
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On my bowed instrument (violin) the band picks up even more feedback than my Fishman (piezo bridge pickup).
I find it useful to use a dynamic expander first in the signal chain. It both acts somewhat as a noise gate and allows more touch-sensitivity at higher gain, which I find bowed instruments particularly lacking in, especially since the bow noise to signal ratio is ordinarily pretty bad when playing softly.
It is probably possible to feed an EQed signal into the peak follower of the dynamic expander, but not to the signal input, so that only frequencies that don't tend to cause feedback are considered as a reason to amplify the signal. I haven't experimented much with this yet, but I can already play loud enough to annoy the neighbors.
Have you heard "The Sanctuary" by Darling Violetta? It was the theme song for the TV show "Angel" some years ago.
I'm not sure how much distortion is on the 'cello, but I love the way the cello and distorted guitar sound together in this song.
Studio recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPnkB_cKKi8
Live (poor audio quality): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAa9mjmfmPI
-Gnobuddy
I think you're going along a good route here. I play violin/fiddle and have had ongoing pickup saga's for years. Magnetic is a good route I reckon.
I have also used a band and A: There not feedback immune, B: Do require a HiZ input and C: Lose a lot of top end, presumably due to the rubbery interface.
An sm57 is also not a solution.
Why not try attaching some magnets to the end of the fingerboard, with pole towards string.
At your nut electrically connect C string to G, D string to A.
At tailpiece connect G to D. Connect C and A to the primary of an 1:20 transformer.
Jack plug on secondary of trafo and plug into a nice chunky valve amp...
I have also used a band and A: There not feedback immune, B: Do require a HiZ input and C: Lose a lot of top end, presumably due to the rubbery interface.
An sm57 is also not a solution.
Why not try attaching some magnets to the end of the fingerboard, with pole towards string.
At your nut electrically connect C string to G, D string to A.
At tailpiece connect G to D. Connect C and A to the primary of an 1:20 transformer.
Jack plug on secondary of trafo and plug into a nice chunky valve amp...
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