i want to build full range speakers for a single ended amp that puts out 9 wpc.
would prefer 3" to 5" drivers.
i have tried tangbands and radio shack and fostex but all these speakers have relatively low sensitivity, requiring that the amp work too hard. i want better than 90 dB sensitivity at 1w/1m. Would prefer 92 or higher.
what 3" to 5" full range spkr would you recommend? spkrs that size all seem to be in the 86 to 89 range. out of desperation i even tried some 5.25" jensen car audio 4ohm full range speakers that are supposed to be 92 dB sensitivity. But they sounded horrible (not surprising) and did not play any louder than the other speakers i've tried.
the 3" tangband W3871S, by the way, sounds better (with sub) than any of the other speakers to date.
would prefer 3" to 5" drivers.
i have tried tangbands and radio shack and fostex but all these speakers have relatively low sensitivity, requiring that the amp work too hard. i want better than 90 dB sensitivity at 1w/1m. Would prefer 92 or higher.
what 3" to 5" full range spkr would you recommend? spkrs that size all seem to be in the 86 to 89 range. out of desperation i even tried some 5.25" jensen car audio 4ohm full range speakers that are supposed to be 92 dB sensitivity. But they sounded horrible (not surprising) and did not play any louder than the other speakers i've tried.
the 3" tangband W3871S, by the way, sounds better (with sub) than any of the other speakers to date.
use multiple drivers
I just ran a model of the TangBand w4654s which has a sensitivity of 86db (like you say, not good). Then I stuck 4 of them in the same box and the effeciency of the system went up to like 95 db.
Anyway, that would solve your problem, but maybe create others. You could make a mini line-array. Even with two (like an mtm) my model shows the net system effeciency at around 92.
Another way to improve the effeciency would be by using it as a horn driver - but that's another ball game, so to speak.
I just ran a model of the TangBand w4654s which has a sensitivity of 86db (like you say, not good). Then I stuck 4 of them in the same box and the effeciency of the system went up to like 95 db.
Anyway, that would solve your problem, but maybe create others. You could make a mini line-array. Even with two (like an mtm) my model shows the net system effeciency at around 92.
Another way to improve the effeciency would be by using it as a horn driver - but that's another ball game, so to speak.
audiotang said:
i have a similar dilema.
the best you can get is about 90-91db using the fostex FF125K.
does your project allow for multiple drivers
BTW do you mean to say that the 871 sounded better than the fostex 103/107/ff85k?
i am looking at a speaker (wall mounted) that will contain a upward facing 4.5" (FF125K, FE127, TB W4-927/930) with a forward facing 3" (FF85K, FE83, TB W3-1008/871). The 3" will be rolled of at about 300-500Hz (1st order passive).
I expect the sens to be about 92db.
Why are u only lookig at 3-5" drivers? my reason is a limited box volume which is 12 liters (that I might have to strech to 14).
why 4"
thanks. in answer to your question(s) the reason i want a smaller driver is, in my experience the larger the driver in a full range system, the more the "beaming" effect in the high frequencies. phase plugs and whizzers only marginally seem to help. I find that hard on the ears and unpleasant. the effect seems to be lessened with the smaller drivers such that i have found the 3" tangband i previously mentioned to have the best overall sound w/o excessive full range "shout". but i have not tried very many of the available drivers, instead trying to focus on finding the most sensitive full range driver i can. i might try a pair of the moth cicada, which i believe is more efficient than the fostex/tangband/audax full range?
as far as why, i want a horn loaded full range with high efficiency for my nOrh se9 single ended amp that cranks 9 wpc.
BUT my wife will butcher me and feed me in small pieces to our cat if i were to construct the usual massive horn loaded cabinet.
so i have constructed a flat horn based on similar designs i've seen on the web.... was very difficult for me to construct but it is compact.. can hang on the wall. And as previously noted the 3"tangbands sound the best so far (with sub). The horns really work as hoped and the sound is very full and "horny" with the tube amp yet smooth and very detailed w/o muddiness. i prefer it to the sound of my reference B&W dm110. BUT for higher volume levels i really need a more sensitive small full range driver.
hope that explains things a little better... see pic of almost finished speaker
thanks. in answer to your question(s) the reason i want a smaller driver is, in my experience the larger the driver in a full range system, the more the "beaming" effect in the high frequencies. phase plugs and whizzers only marginally seem to help. I find that hard on the ears and unpleasant. the effect seems to be lessened with the smaller drivers such that i have found the 3" tangband i previously mentioned to have the best overall sound w/o excessive full range "shout". but i have not tried very many of the available drivers, instead trying to focus on finding the most sensitive full range driver i can. i might try a pair of the moth cicada, which i believe is more efficient than the fostex/tangband/audax full range?
as far as why, i want a horn loaded full range with high efficiency for my nOrh se9 single ended amp that cranks 9 wpc.
BUT my wife will butcher me and feed me in small pieces to our cat if i were to construct the usual massive horn loaded cabinet.
so i have constructed a flat horn based on similar designs i've seen on the web.... was very difficult for me to construct but it is compact.. can hang on the wall. And as previously noted the 3"tangbands sound the best so far (with sub). The horns really work as hoped and the sound is very full and "horny" with the tube amp yet smooth and very detailed w/o muddiness. i prefer it to the sound of my reference B&W dm110. BUT for higher volume levels i really need a more sensitive small full range driver.
hope that explains things a little better... see pic of almost finished speaker
Attachments
Re: why 4"
Getting a really efficient 4" is a challenge, because you keep bumping up against the small piston area... even the Lowther DX55 (more like a 5") is rated at 94 dB -- BTW this seems to be Nelson's favorite so far of his run through a whack of FRs.
The only other small driver that may get up there is the small exact, and i beieve they make the Lowther look inexpensive.
Getting the efficiency of such a small driver way up requires expensive engineering and BIG magnets.
Your wall horns are elegant and will get the most out of a small driver ... i don't have the wall space and tend towards using a pr of drivers in each box -- i'm even contemplating 4, but that all of sudden means a tweeter and a crossover....
dave
Getting a really efficient 4" is a challenge, because you keep bumping up against the small piston area... even the Lowther DX55 (more like a 5") is rated at 94 dB -- BTW this seems to be Nelson's favorite so far of his run through a whack of FRs.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The only other small driver that may get up there is the small exact, and i beieve they make the Lowther look inexpensive.
Getting the efficiency of such a small driver way up requires expensive engineering and BIG magnets.
Your wall horns are elegant and will get the most out of a small driver ... i don't have the wall space and tend towards using a pr of drivers in each box -- i'm even contemplating 4, but that all of sudden means a tweeter and a crossover....
dave
Re: why 4"
Audiotang-
thanks for your answer, I find myself in about the same place. I ended up with a 108e sigma, but that leaves me with somewhat limited dynamics (I've only got 6 wpc). Now that I've been listening to these for a while I keep eyeing the larger fostex drivers wanting more dynamics. I've heard the 208e sigmas, but never lived with any larger fullrange drivers, so I don't have any real exprience with beaming. Although I have heard that the FX200 tend not to beam very much due to a flatter cone.... this is just second hand gossip though.
On a different subject your wall horn look very nice. Are the based off of the Cornu spiral horns? They look like they are curved inside but it is hard to tell. They all so look like they would take up some serious wall space. I hope they work out for you, and would be interested in what you think of the final result.
Joe
Audiotang-
thanks for your answer, I find myself in about the same place. I ended up with a 108e sigma, but that leaves me with somewhat limited dynamics (I've only got 6 wpc). Now that I've been listening to these for a while I keep eyeing the larger fostex drivers wanting more dynamics. I've heard the 208e sigmas, but never lived with any larger fullrange drivers, so I don't have any real exprience with beaming. Although I have heard that the FX200 tend not to beam very much due to a flatter cone.... this is just second hand gossip though.
On a different subject your wall horn look very nice. Are the based off of the Cornu spiral horns? They look like they are curved inside but it is hard to tell. They all so look like they would take up some serious wall space. I hope they work out for you, and would be interested in what you think of the final result.
Joe
hi joe
joe thanks for your comments. I have been conceptualizing how to incorporate a horn without displacing any living space; the ever important WAF to be considered. I have drawn up some plans for placement of horns inside the walls and may well do that. I also drew up some plans for a "flat"speaker, but with the speaker on the edge rather than the middle. When i saw the cornu horn i thought i could do something like that.
the cornu horn is larger and also has 4 horns. mine is only 24" square 4" deep and only has one horn. the other difference from the cornu horn is that in my case the speaker sits in a damped chamber that is attached to the horn. the german fellow's speaker feeds directly into the 4 horns which i think must limit the bass output.
but what do i know? I am very happy with the sound i am getting, NOW I UNDERSTAND this whole low power/horn speaker thing. It is a whole different ball game!
i also like the reaction i am getting when people see the diminutive 3" speaker and then hear the BIG horn sound. to most people used to big woofers and big boxes it does not seem possible.
joe thanks for your comments. I have been conceptualizing how to incorporate a horn without displacing any living space; the ever important WAF to be considered. I have drawn up some plans for placement of horns inside the walls and may well do that. I also drew up some plans for a "flat"speaker, but with the speaker on the edge rather than the middle. When i saw the cornu horn i thought i could do something like that.
the cornu horn is larger and also has 4 horns. mine is only 24" square 4" deep and only has one horn. the other difference from the cornu horn is that in my case the speaker sits in a damped chamber that is attached to the horn. the german fellow's speaker feeds directly into the 4 horns which i think must limit the bass output.
but what do i know? I am very happy with the sound i am getting, NOW I UNDERSTAND this whole low power/horn speaker thing. It is a whole different ball game!
i also like the reaction i am getting when people see the diminutive 3" speaker and then hear the BIG horn sound. to most people used to big woofers and big boxes it does not seem possible.
audiotang-
Do you mind explaining some of how you built the horn. How did you bend the wood and then attatch it to the front and back? I can understand bending the wood, but I don't know how you would bend the wood and get it to hold the exact curve you want while attatching the front and back, being unable to see/adjust the wood adding the second side.
just curious
Joe
Do you mind explaining some of how you built the horn. How did you bend the wood and then attatch it to the front and back? I can understand bending the wood, but I don't know how you would bend the wood and get it to hold the exact curve you want while attatching the front and back, being unable to see/adjust the wood adding the second side.
just curious
Joe
also joe
thanks fr the info on the sigmas. more imprtant then the"wow" factor with the 3" is how flat the tangband response is overall and how the slightly forward sound (compared to my B&W) matches up so well with the "laid back" sound of the nOrh SE amp. a very good match up, except for the ned for higher sensitivity.
while i have only heard a handful of systems utilizing the larger full range drivers they all seem to have had that "beam" or "shout" characteristic.
while not as sensitive as i hoped the mini-horns sound very nice, lits of detail and smoooth.
my search for a more sensitive small full range driver continues! there is probably a reason there aren't any to be found... what might that be?
someone else noted that using multiple drivers would increase overall sensitivity. i may try that, but doesn't it result in some imaging/interaction problems between the drivers?
and if i use 2 drivers, should i use 8 ohm and hook them up in parallel or in series? or use 4 ohm spkrs?
thanks fr the info on the sigmas. more imprtant then the"wow" factor with the 3" is how flat the tangband response is overall and how the slightly forward sound (compared to my B&W) matches up so well with the "laid back" sound of the nOrh SE amp. a very good match up, except for the ned for higher sensitivity.
while i have only heard a handful of systems utilizing the larger full range drivers they all seem to have had that "beam" or "shout" characteristic.
while not as sensitive as i hoped the mini-horns sound very nice, lits of detail and smoooth.
my search for a more sensitive small full range driver continues! there is probably a reason there aren't any to be found... what might that be?
someone else noted that using multiple drivers would increase overall sensitivity. i may try that, but doesn't it result in some imaging/interaction problems between the drivers?
and if i use 2 drivers, should i use 8 ohm and hook them up in parallel or in series? or use 4 ohm spkrs?
joseph: i am not adept at woodworking and don't have the tools. the cornu spiral is simply too complex and i wanted a simpler approach. So after drawing out the single spiral i used museum board for the channels. I cut large strips 4" wide. In order to make it curve i cut vertical slits 1" apart and the board then bent to the shape i wanted. i affixed the shaped museum board to one panel with the strongest adhesive caulking i could find and let it set. I then slathered a generous amount of the adhesive onto the top of the exposed horn wall, placed the other panel on it under weight and let it set. It is light and rigid and can easily hang on the wall. i cut a large enough hole to accomodate a 5.25" speaker and I simply clip on another panel with a different speaker to try out and by this method determined that i liked the tangbands the best.
of course museum matt board is just foam with cardboard on both sides and i realize it is not the ideal substance but i was able to seal it completely tight. And I padded one side of the spiral with insulation. it is well damped.
i'll attach a pic looking down the mouth of the horn during construction and you should be able to see how the curve was formed.
of course museum matt board is just foam with cardboard on both sides and i realize it is not the ideal substance but i was able to seal it completely tight. And I padded one side of the spiral with insulation. it is well damped.
i'll attach a pic looking down the mouth of the horn during construction and you should be able to see how the curve was formed.
Attachments
I second that recomendation....
As far as multiple drivers go, I would bite the bullet and go for a 6" driver before going to multiple drivers. I wouldn't think the beaming would be that bad on a six inch... obviously your going to have some beaming no matter what. I certainly get more treble on axis then off, with my 108's. Nelson Pass had high praise for the fe166, it might be worth checking out... I'm not really sure you can do mulitple fullrangers very effectively without combing and the likes, although I'm certainly not an expert in line arrays.
Thanks for the construction info
Joe
As far as multiple drivers go, I would bite the bullet and go for a 6" driver before going to multiple drivers. I wouldn't think the beaming would be that bad on a six inch... obviously your going to have some beaming no matter what. I certainly get more treble on axis then off, with my 108's. Nelson Pass had high praise for the fe166, it might be worth checking out... I'm not really sure you can do mulitple fullrangers very effectively without combing and the likes, although I'm certainly not an expert in line arrays.
Thanks for the construction info
Joe
thanks david
i checked the PHL site per your recommendation.. never heard of them before you mentioned them. they do have sensitive speakers but they don't seem to be really FR, or at least the ones i saw on the web didn't... good to 8k hz or so.
i did locate in the "pro audio" section at www.partsexpress.com a Galaxy full range 5" driver with a 40 oz magnet and 93dB sensitivity.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-015
anyone tried that in a home audio application? appears it may be designed for sealed box, so it may not be suitable for vented box.. for lack of a technical term that means i guess it will flop around without the stiffening of a sealed enclosure? if that is the case i wouldn't be able to use it in my design, which is horn loaded? would appreciate sharing any thoughts about this driver.
the home-made horns using tangbands will get loud enough with the nOrh se-9 (single ended pentode 9 watts), but if i go SET i can expect maybe 4 wpc and that ain't gonna be enough.
i checked the PHL site per your recommendation.. never heard of them before you mentioned them. they do have sensitive speakers but they don't seem to be really FR, or at least the ones i saw on the web didn't... good to 8k hz or so.
i did locate in the "pro audio" section at www.partsexpress.com a Galaxy full range 5" driver with a 40 oz magnet and 93dB sensitivity.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-015
anyone tried that in a home audio application? appears it may be designed for sealed box, so it may not be suitable for vented box.. for lack of a technical term that means i guess it will flop around without the stiffening of a sealed enclosure? if that is the case i wouldn't be able to use it in my design, which is horn loaded? would appreciate sharing any thoughts about this driver.
the home-made horns using tangbands will get loud enough with the nOrh se-9 (single ended pentode 9 watts), but if i go SET i can expect maybe 4 wpc and that ain't gonna be enough.
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