The high end of the Dayton PS180 response looks like this; Vertical ticks are 5db
The 30 deg combing and the big 10 db dip right in the middle of the 10 - 20K octave concerned me, compared to most of the MarkAudio plots. Given that I'm pretty sure I cant hear anything above 10K, I thought I'd just try them and see how they sound to me, being a month's old newbie at this FR driver thing.
Perhaps that dip could continue down to zero for all my ears could tell - or it could be true that it's still desirable to have a response extended beyond what I can hear, as it effects the tone of what I can. That is much dont know on my part.
Looking at the Eikona DCR pics, I see no herculean effort (such as trimming the basket frame...) was made to arrange the drivers closer together vertically - the space between them being generous, versus zero or overlapping to the point where you'd risk ruining the driver. So how was the center to center distance chosen in this design?
I have a few different amplifiers, but am sticking to using one at a time for now. The amp I've been listening to mainly is an EL34 push pull design, but has no 4 ohm output. I have at least one experience telling me it sounds strained driving a 4 ohm load. The EL84 amp has a 4 ohm output and it sounds better to me when I use it on any of my speakers. So I have to consider this in a dual driver scheme regarding how I'd wire the drivers. Thanks! (and Dave for sharing Dual-Driver-Wiring.pdf)
The 30 deg combing and the big 10 db dip right in the middle of the 10 - 20K octave concerned me, compared to most of the MarkAudio plots. Given that I'm pretty sure I cant hear anything above 10K, I thought I'd just try them and see how they sound to me, being a month's old newbie at this FR driver thing.
Perhaps that dip could continue down to zero for all my ears could tell - or it could be true that it's still desirable to have a response extended beyond what I can hear, as it effects the tone of what I can. That is much dont know on my part.
Looking at the Eikona DCR pics, I see no herculean effort (such as trimming the basket frame...) was made to arrange the drivers closer together vertically - the space between them being generous, versus zero or overlapping to the point where you'd risk ruining the driver. So how was the center to center distance chosen in this design?
I have a few different amplifiers, but am sticking to using one at a time for now. The amp I've been listening to mainly is an EL34 push pull design, but has no 4 ohm output. I have at least one experience telling me it sounds strained driving a 4 ohm load. The EL84 amp has a 4 ohm output and it sounds better to me when I use it on any of my speakers. So I have to consider this in a dual driver scheme regarding how I'd wire the drivers. Thanks! (and Dave for sharing Dual-Driver-Wiring.pdf)
Attachments
In the case of the Castles (Front/top), and the front/side bipoles one driver is predominantly forward.
dave
A good plan. Start small. You will find it near impossible to build only one. I wouldn’t personally pick a Dayton, but it gets kudos.
I have at least one experience telling me it sounds strained driving a 4 ohm load.
It all depends on the load. 4Ω is a nominal value and often next to meaningless (especially if an XO is involved). The shape is more important.
dave
I have a pair of Jordan-Watts floor standing speaker enclosures housing a pair of original J-W modules each. Mid to late sixties early seventies. They go deep. I would suggest that extra bass and higher sensitivity would be the main reason to go this route. As to pinpoint imaging, go to listen to a live orchestra; the imaging is frequently very poor.
Cheers Steve
Cheers Steve
Hello, There are some out there as per your opening question. Here's one by Decware and Omega to check out that has a bit of info etc:
DECWARE Omega Speaker Systems' Super 3 High Output XRS Loudspeaker
Dual Drivers 1.5 way Speaker
More than 15 years ago I designed and built 1.5 way speakers with dual TangBand W3-871S drivers. The upper driver runs full range while the lower driver is rolled off above the baffle step point. I still use these purple heart cheek speakers in a small bedroom system.
http://www.patcave.com/diy2002/sjgc6958.jpg
More than 15 years ago I designed and built 1.5 way speakers with dual TangBand W3-871S drivers. The upper driver runs full range while the lower driver is rolled off above the baffle step point. I still use these purple heart cheek speakers in a small bedroom system.
http://www.patcave.com/diy2002/sjgc6958.jpg
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I once threw together 4 sealed boxes for chr-70.2's and tried them in different configurations. Two forward, one forward one back, one forward one to the side, and one forward and one facing up like a castle. I didn't try a 1.5. I preferred the castle type. They were so ugly I destroyed them (not the drivers!).
I would never recommend that you don't do it when referencing a two driver configuration.
What I suggest is that you do it right. Planet10's one page wiring/loading sheet linked in Reply #5 of this thread covers most of the issues with the choices of configurations for the two drivers.
Running both drivers full range is not the correct answer for a two driver arrangement. That situation usually degrades the high frequency sound and likely does not account for BSC which would adjust the lower frequency SPL level.
For two 8 ohms drivers and provided your amplifier can deal with a 4 ohms load, the configuration that runs two drivers in parallel with a series coil on one driver for BSC provides excellent sound for me. Best deals with any low frequency distortion, adjusts the SPL flatness over the range, and
assures high frequency smoothness.
What I suggest is that you do it right. Planet10's one page wiring/loading sheet linked in Reply #5 of this thread covers most of the issues with the choices of configurations for the two drivers.
Running both drivers full range is not the correct answer for a two driver arrangement. That situation usually degrades the high frequency sound and likely does not account for BSC which would adjust the lower frequency SPL level.
For two 8 ohms drivers and provided your amplifier can deal with a 4 ohms load, the configuration that runs two drivers in parallel with a series coil on one driver for BSC provides excellent sound for me. Best deals with any low frequency distortion, adjusts the SPL flatness over the range, and
assures high frequency smoothness.
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I got the Daytons and got them installed; gosh they are the audio equivalent of staring directly into an LED flashlight - so bright they are painful, some recordings unlistenable... Immediate impression was like listening to just tweeters, kinda like the Fe103s (unaided by some eq and sub) are like listening to just midranges -
Maybe that's why the seller was getting rid of them.
I wonder if there's a reasonable way to shelf-down the whole decade from 1 - 10 kHz?
I'm 62 and top out at 10 kHz - I cant imagine what these would sound like to a teenager.
Back when the audio industry was transitioning from LPs to digital, I figured out that some engineers EQ'd the digital to sound like the LP, instead of the original mix. But they didnt have the cartridge loading capacitance correct, so the digital product ended up sounding like the LP with the high end EQ completely wrong! When these speakers encounter such a recording (Fleetwood Mac), the treble is just completely insane...
Maybe make nice tweeters in a FAST OB design. Now I wish I went with those Japanese EQ'd MA drivers. Live and learn.
Maybe that's why the seller was getting rid of them.
I wonder if there's a reasonable way to shelf-down the whole decade from 1 - 10 kHz?
I'm 62 and top out at 10 kHz - I cant imagine what these would sound like to a teenager.
Back when the audio industry was transitioning from LPs to digital, I figured out that some engineers EQ'd the digital to sound like the LP, instead of the original mix. But they didnt have the cartridge loading capacitance correct, so the digital product ended up sounding like the LP with the high end EQ completely wrong! When these speakers encounter such a recording (Fleetwood Mac), the treble is just completely insane...
Maybe make nice tweeters in a FAST OB design. Now I wish I went with those Japanese EQ'd MA drivers. Live and learn.
Use a frequency contour filter [AKA CD horn EQ]: A, B, and C Contour Filters for Sound Measurement
Contour Network Designer / Calculator
GM
Contour Network Designer / Calculator
GM
Well, we'd like it best if the transducer just had a flattish response without having to resort to putting extra stuff in the electrical signal path. I do appreciate you pointing out the Contour Network designer link!
What I've done instead is incorporate this Equalizer APO VST plug-in host into my system, as all my musical entertainment runs on Windows and all my music collection resides therein. I just use the EQ to shelf down that rising response and it sounds better - probably quite similar to inserting the electrical filter into the speaker wiring.
No soldering required. I've only recently learned about this Equalizer APO thing. It sounds to me that you can EQ with zero adverse effects - like you'd get from running an analog signal through a few dozen circuits comprised of capacitors in the signal path. As we had in the old days...
Yeah, I'm behind. But I'll probably never look back when it comes to using software based music production tools to listen to music.
What I've done instead is incorporate this Equalizer APO VST plug-in host into my system, as all my musical entertainment runs on Windows and all my music collection resides therein. I just use the EQ to shelf down that rising response and it sounds better - probably quite similar to inserting the electrical filter into the speaker wiring.
No soldering required. I've only recently learned about this Equalizer APO thing. It sounds to me that you can EQ with zero adverse effects - like you'd get from running an analog signal through a few dozen circuits comprised of capacitors in the signal path. As we had in the old days...
Yeah, I'm behind. But I'll probably never look back when it comes to using software based music production tools to listen to music.
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You're welcome, but I'd like it best if you'd told us about your music system from the get-go and wouldn't have wasted my time.
Yes, today's digital signal processors [DSP] are so good, full featured, quiet that in general there's no need for passive components anymore or how flat the driver needs to be or even if its specs are any good for the available cab size, just digitally re-EQ it, trading efficiency for bandwidth [BW], so obviously won't play [nearly] as loud, but then relatively few folks play their systems loud, even if HTs and tolerate a lot more distortion than they might think.
GM
Dave, I've only tried a few free ones to see if the host works. One is a multi-band dynamic range compressor, that when you enter fractional compression values, it acts as an expander.
It's actually a dangerous plug-in, as it can become unwieldy in response to certain values entered for the compression ratios - I got it to cough up some real blasts of outright digital noise that could definitely be a speaker killer. However, after straightening out my approach to accommodate that aspect, I think I actually got it to do what I want this morning. Multiband dynamic range expansion.
I posted a topic over in the "PC" forum about using musical production tools to listen to music. Zero replies so far. They're as enamored with their raspberry PIs over there, as we are with a 6BQ5 in triode mode. So maybe no one's interested in some old guy's "Windows" on a "X86 PC based" music system. I'd like to learn more about what's available and what works in the realm of these VST plug-ins!
It's actually a dangerous plug-in, as it can become unwieldy in response to certain values entered for the compression ratios - I got it to cough up some real blasts of outright digital noise that could definitely be a speaker killer. However, after straightening out my approach to accommodate that aspect, I think I actually got it to do what I want this morning. Multiband dynamic range expansion.
I posted a topic over in the "PC" forum about using musical production tools to listen to music. Zero replies so far. They're as enamored with their raspberry PIs over there, as we are with a 6BQ5 in triode mode. So maybe no one's interested in some old guy's "Windows" on a "X86 PC based" music system. I'd like to learn more about what's available and what works in the realm of these VST plug-ins!
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GM - it wasnt a waste of your time. I went to the links, ran some numbers, considered the results (If I have parts on hand that I could do this with...) I hadnt even got the software EQ program installed and setup yet - that happened after I went through the links you pointed me to.
So you inspired me into a solution. Isnt that a good part of what this is all about? It's just that I went off and found a different way of accomplishing the same thing - and your effort was a tooth in the cog that got me there. Thanks!
So you inspired me into a solution. Isnt that a good part of what this is all about? It's just that I went off and found a different way of accomplishing the same thing - and your effort was a tooth in the cog that got me there. Thanks!
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