Hi all,
I’ve spent lot of time sourcing information on this topic, but still need some help for my specific situation.
Right now I live in small flat, but I’m about to start building the house so I also want to adapt and hopefully improve my audio setup.
My current setup is:
Technics SL 1210 with Denon DL110 cart > Valvewizard’s PCB based DIY phono stage > Primaluna Prologue One (EL34 based push Pull amplifier 35 WPC) -> Planet10’s CGR slim enclosures wit Alpairs 7.3
As digital source I’m using Denafrips Ares R2R DAC connected to linux server.
I’m listening to variety of genres like jazz, classical, vocal, rock, but also electronic and drum&bass (which contains lot of bass).
I really like the detailed and live-like sound of my Alpairs but even in my small place I’m able to drive them to the limit in party mode. Also some more complex music like some rock tracks doesn’t really suits them (I hope to solve this problem with WAW too).
My new living room will be semi-opened from right side 7x4,5 m 23x15 ft freely connected to another room 5x4 m 16x13 ft.
My idea is to achieve something like this -so separated enclosure for fullrange and separated enclosure for woofer, but in “single speaker design” look.
This leads to my first question -which drivers to use?
I was thinking about Alpair 7ms, as it seems to be evolution from my current driver which I like a lot, but I’m concerned if, when freed from bass work (crossed around 200hz), they can deliver enough power in bigger place. Or is Alpair 11ms better choice for more headroom in power handling? Or do you have other tips for my situation?
As for a woofer I was thinking of going sealed. Because I don’t like boomy bass and I think it could also limit room modes. Is it a good idea? I want as much musical and detailed bass as possible (this is most important for me), flat response and to dig as deep as possible (In D&B there is lot of deep bass).
I’ve already found some potential candidates, but feel free to suggest anything else. Those are:
CSS SDX10 or SDX12 (this one starting to be little bit pricey, considering I need to order it from Europe)
Dayton audio RSS315HFA-8 or RSS390HF-4 (I like how low this one can go sealed, so I’m inclined towards this one, but enclosure design would be challenging)
Seas L26RO4Y or Seas L26ROY (I don’t need to pay taxes and expensive shipping for those in Europe)
I plan to bi-amp this thing. Preferably with DIY tube pre with integrated line level crossover (I’m considering pllxo or Linkwitz/Riley), my current push pull amp will feed the fullrange and for woofers I’m thinking about building TI 3255 EVM based amplifier.
I would like to avoid DSP if possible.
Sorry for the long text and thanks for suggestions.
I’ve spent lot of time sourcing information on this topic, but still need some help for my specific situation.
Right now I live in small flat, but I’m about to start building the house so I also want to adapt and hopefully improve my audio setup.
My current setup is:
Technics SL 1210 with Denon DL110 cart > Valvewizard’s PCB based DIY phono stage > Primaluna Prologue One (EL34 based push Pull amplifier 35 WPC) -> Planet10’s CGR slim enclosures wit Alpairs 7.3
As digital source I’m using Denafrips Ares R2R DAC connected to linux server.
I’m listening to variety of genres like jazz, classical, vocal, rock, but also electronic and drum&bass (which contains lot of bass).
I really like the detailed and live-like sound of my Alpairs but even in my small place I’m able to drive them to the limit in party mode. Also some more complex music like some rock tracks doesn’t really suits them (I hope to solve this problem with WAW too).
My new living room will be semi-opened from right side 7x4,5 m 23x15 ft freely connected to another room 5x4 m 16x13 ft.
My idea is to achieve something like this -so separated enclosure for fullrange and separated enclosure for woofer, but in “single speaker design” look.
This leads to my first question -which drivers to use?
I was thinking about Alpair 7ms, as it seems to be evolution from my current driver which I like a lot, but I’m concerned if, when freed from bass work (crossed around 200hz), they can deliver enough power in bigger place. Or is Alpair 11ms better choice for more headroom in power handling? Or do you have other tips for my situation?
As for a woofer I was thinking of going sealed. Because I don’t like boomy bass and I think it could also limit room modes. Is it a good idea? I want as much musical and detailed bass as possible (this is most important for me), flat response and to dig as deep as possible (In D&B there is lot of deep bass).
I’ve already found some potential candidates, but feel free to suggest anything else. Those are:
CSS SDX10 or SDX12 (this one starting to be little bit pricey, considering I need to order it from Europe)
Dayton audio RSS315HFA-8 or RSS390HF-4 (I like how low this one can go sealed, so I’m inclined towards this one, but enclosure design would be challenging)
Seas L26RO4Y or Seas L26ROY (I don’t need to pay taxes and expensive shipping for those in Europe)
I plan to bi-amp this thing. Preferably with DIY tube pre with integrated line level crossover (I’m considering pllxo or Linkwitz/Riley), my current push pull amp will feed the fullrange and for woofers I’m thinking about building TI 3255 EVM based amplifier.
I would like to avoid DSP if possible.
Sorry for the long text and thanks for suggestions.
Greets!
First things first, acoustic power is exponential [1/f], so when wanting to be sure the mids/HF driver can handle the load at low distortion theoretically limits the XO to ~ [lf*hf]^0.5, so for a 16-20 kHz bandwidth [BW] = [16*20000]^0.5 = ~566 Hz and a minimum diaphragm diameter theoretically = ~13543/pi/[566/0.707] = ~5.39" for both good acoustic power handling and summation through the XO BW with a VC diameter = ~0.152" or at least its mean = ~1064 Hz/~4.05"/~0.216".
Calculate the woofer's specs the same way.
For both wide range single drivers and 'sub' systems then, it becomes obvious that multiple smaller drivers are required to get the theoretical diaphragm, VC diameters unless there's some woofers with a ~5.39" dia. VC I'm not aware of.
That said, short of pipe organ/synth recordings, sound power rapidly decays above ~500 Hz, so one can adjust the specs to this lower XO point if the mid/HF driver can handle the extra power at low distortion.
All that said, for a variety of [good] reasons folks around here generally want the least number of drivers, lowest XO point and smallest mid/HF driver in the smallest net bulk they can get away with and willing to trade quite a bit of efficiency/increased distortion to get it, so short of a prosound app I post only as a frame of reference.
Re your ~200 Hz XO point, excursion increases by a factor of [4]/octave, so if it takes 1 mm Xmax to do 566 Hz, then it will take 10log[566/200]/log[2] = ~6.76 mm [prosound loud, so again, strictly as a frame of reference].
To the first approximation, sealed/OB/compression horn loading woofer systems are the best options overall, but the room dominates, so not necessarily and why multiples are also the preferred way to do these too.
In short, to the first approximation, find the driver that closest match up to the above 'ideals' as a single to see how many [if more than one] it will take of each to get the desired peak SPL @ low distortion and if this isn't acceptable, then figure out what's the smallest composite will work 'good enough' and if there's more than one choice, then normally choose whichever has the smallest diameter VC regardless of its published frequency response since any differences can usually be tweaked to get the desired 'voicing'.
GM
First things first, acoustic power is exponential [1/f], so when wanting to be sure the mids/HF driver
Calculate the woofer's specs the same way.
For both wide range single drivers and 'sub' systems then, it becomes obvious that multiple smaller drivers are required to get the theoretical diaphragm, VC diameters unless there's some woofers with a ~5.39" dia. VC I'm not aware of.
That said, short of pipe organ/synth recordings, sound power rapidly decays above ~500 Hz, so one can adjust the specs to this lower XO point if the mid/HF driver
All that said, for a variety of [good] reasons folks around here generally want the least number of drivers, lowest XO point and smallest mid/HF driver
Re your ~200 Hz XO point, excursion increases by a factor of [4]/octave, so if it takes 1 mm Xmax to do 566 Hz, then it will take 10log[566/200]/log[2] = ~6.76 mm [prosound loud, so again, strictly as a frame of reference].
To the first approximation, sealed/OB/compression horn loading woofer systems are the best options overall, but the room dominates, so not necessarily and why multiples are also the preferred way to do these too.
In short, to the first approximation, find the driver
GM
Hi GM,
thank you very much for your effort, but I'm getting lost in your equations. I've never been interested in multi-way speaker theory, so this is probably reason I'm lost. I understand, that acoustic power is exponential. But I don't understand the rest:
[16*20000]^0.5 -why is this formula limiting the XO point? I thought you need to cross in region where chosen drivers are flat enough.
13543/pi/[566/0.707 -where the numbers 13543 and 0.707 comes from?🙂
VC diameter = ~0.152" or at least its mean = ~1064 Hz/~4.05"/~0.216". I don't understand this neither. Where the voice coil diameter comes from? And how those numbers transformed to the 1064 Hz/~4.05"/~0.216 ?
Sorry for being lame, but I tried to google it without success. (I will gladly learn more about this topic, if you can point out some sources for me).
Anyway I like that this is mathematical approach instead of guessing.
thank you very much for your effort, but I'm getting lost in your equations. I've never been interested in multi-way speaker theory, so this is probably reason I'm lost. I understand, that acoustic power is exponential. But I don't understand the rest:
[16*20000]^0.5 -why is this formula limiting the XO point? I thought you need to cross in region where chosen drivers are flat enough.
13543/pi/[566/0.707 -where the numbers 13543 and 0.707 comes from?🙂
VC diameter = ~0.152" or at least its mean = ~1064 Hz/~4.05"/~0.216". I don't understand this neither. Where the voice coil diameter comes from? And how those numbers transformed to the 1064 Hz/~4.05"/~0.216 ?
Sorry for being lame, but I tried to google it without success. (I will gladly learn more about this topic, if you can point out some sources for me).
Anyway I like that this is mathematical approach instead of guessing.
Greets!
You're welcome!
Yeah, I hear that a lot............among other things.............
It's about acoustic power distribution, mid-band efficiency, i.e. using an appropriately large, powerful driver for the high power bandwidth [BW] and tapering them down with increasing frequency/decreasing acoustic power. Obviously, one must find the right driver for each app, though while ideally it should be flat for at least an octave on either side of the XO point [-12 dB], it's not 'cast in stone'.
Speed of sound is ~13543"/sec.; 0.707 is a driver/baffle 'pipe' end correction fudge factor I use based on experience that's 'close enough' for choosing driver size, XO points. For the perfectionist, it can be accurately measured with polar response plots.
Voice coil size is normally in the specs and are wrapped around a pipe former and pipes have limits as to how low/high they can 'speak' [resonate] same as an organ pipe/closed TL [cylinder]**, so being glued to the diaphragm its diameter sets the driver's pistonic HF limit; everything above this frequency is TL and break-up modes, so mostly just euphonic noise, hence why we want as small a VC as practical for the mids/HF whereas for [mid] bass our hearing acuity is so poor down low that it's more about current carrying capacity at low thermal power distortion [heat rise] than pistonic HF response.
** Resonances of open air columns
By using the example formulas to calculate them........... 😉
No need, 'sorry' is reserved for folks too lazy/whatever to do a bit of 'due diligence' before asking 😉. Regardless, doubt it's on-line as I've never posted it before IIRC nor anyone else AFAIK, at least not in this much detail.
GM
You're welcome!
Yeah, I hear that a lot............among other things.............
It's about acoustic power distribution, mid-band efficiency, i.e. using an appropriately large, powerful driver for the high power bandwidth [BW] and tapering them down with increasing frequency/decreasing acoustic power. Obviously, one must find the right driver for each app, though while ideally it should be flat for at least an octave on either side of the XO point [-12 dB], it's not 'cast in stone'.
Speed of sound is ~13543"/sec.; 0.707 is a driver/baffle 'pipe' end correction fudge factor I use based on experience that's 'close enough' for choosing driver size, XO points. For the perfectionist, it can be accurately measured with polar response plots.
Voice coil size is normally in the specs and are wrapped around a pipe former and pipes have limits as to how low/high they can 'speak' [resonate] same as an organ pipe/closed TL [cylinder]**, so being glued to the diaphragm its diameter sets the driver's pistonic HF limit; everything above this frequency is TL and break-up modes, so mostly just euphonic noise, hence why we want as small a VC as practical for the mids/HF whereas for [mid] bass our hearing acuity is so poor down low that it's more about current carrying capacity at low thermal power distortion [heat rise] than pistonic HF response.
** Resonances of open air columns
By using the example formulas to calculate them........... 😉
No need, 'sorry' is reserved for folks too lazy/whatever to do a bit of 'due diligence' before asking 😉. Regardless, doubt it's on-line as I've never posted it before IIRC nor anyone else AFAIK, at least not in this much detail.
GM
You made me search more on this topic and it was definitely worthwhile. At least I now know something about physical limits of drivers. Following this direction will basically lead me to either multiway, or array solution for mid/high. While I’m afraid, that one day I may end up there I still want to try it the “WAW way”. But I want to make my speaker modular, so I can change the mid/high section if unsatisfied.
The main reasons I want to give it a chance are:
I want at least mid / high section on tube-amplifiers. Splitting it would mean either passive crossover (which I don’t like) or even more multi-amping. Which will rise my budget for this project significantly.
I don’t want to lose “magic” fullrange sound. At some tracks they are very live-like, probably due to being a point source. Have someone tried small fullrange array in WAW? How does it compare to single fullrange?
As of your suggested limits -you surely have point here. But I must also admit, that at least Alpair 7.3 (only driver I’ve experienced) seems to be quite good in practice. I don’t feel like I need more help in high frequencies and also bass is impressive for it’s size. I don't know what's the trick -maybe sacrificing output power capability? But yes I admit, that bass needs reinforcement, which is the reason for this topic.
Also back to original question: have anyone tried those Dayton audio or SEAS drivers in WAW? Do they blend nicely? I’ve seen happy people with CSS and A12PW, but not much reference on those.
The main reasons I want to give it a chance are:
I want at least mid / high section on tube-amplifiers. Splitting it would mean either passive crossover (which I don’t like) or even more multi-amping. Which will rise my budget for this project significantly.
I don’t want to lose “magic” fullrange sound. At some tracks they are very live-like, probably due to being a point source. Have someone tried small fullrange array in WAW? How does it compare to single fullrange?
As of your suggested limits -you surely have point here. But I must also admit, that at least Alpair 7.3 (only driver I’ve experienced) seems to be quite good in practice. I don’t feel like I need more help in high frequencies and also bass is impressive for it’s size. I don't know what's the trick -maybe sacrificing output power capability? But yes I admit, that bass needs reinforcement, which is the reason for this topic.
Also back to original question: have anyone tried those Dayton audio or SEAS drivers in WAW? Do they blend nicely? I’ve seen happy people with CSS and A12PW, but not much reference on those.
'Sounds' like a plan! 😉
Passive is actually better overall on the tube side, especially if PIO caps are used all around...........
To keep the 'magic', create a large diameter multi-way 'FR' driver with the proper time offset and 1st order acoustic XO.
Yes, always trading efficiency for BW, which these little drivers do at each end, hence the abysmal mid band reference efficiency.
GM
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