Hello!
First post...I found diyaudio by stumbling across the Wild Burro Audio labs site which turned me onto building myself a pair of open baffle speakers...or something else...?
The room where the speakers will live is relatively small (12x18').
The speakers will be powered by a miniwatt N3.
So...what type of speakers should I build? It's my understanding that the design on the Wild Burro site requires more space between the wall and the speaker? Would it make more sense for me to go with a closed speaker design? I'm in a small apartment now and I'm buying a house soon but I can't imagine I'd ever have much space for a pair of speakers that need to be placed in the middle of the room.
So what I'd like help with is what kind of drivers I should buy and what kind of speakers I should build. It would be cool to use the Wild Burro speakers since he seems like a nice guy and they're made in the USA...which I think are both important.
I should also mention that I am a cabinet maker and I own a wood shop. All I need is someone to tell me what to do, I can build pretty much anything. Plans would help though...
Thank you all in advance for the help and please let me know if you need any more details.
BB
First post...I found diyaudio by stumbling across the Wild Burro Audio labs site which turned me onto building myself a pair of open baffle speakers...or something else...?
The room where the speakers will live is relatively small (12x18').
The speakers will be powered by a miniwatt N3.
So...what type of speakers should I build? It's my understanding that the design on the Wild Burro site requires more space between the wall and the speaker? Would it make more sense for me to go with a closed speaker design? I'm in a small apartment now and I'm buying a house soon but I can't imagine I'd ever have much space for a pair of speakers that need to be placed in the middle of the room.
So what I'd like help with is what kind of drivers I should buy and what kind of speakers I should build. It would be cool to use the Wild Burro speakers since he seems like a nice guy and they're made in the USA...which I think are both important.
I should also mention that I am a cabinet maker and I own a wood shop. All I need is someone to tell me what to do, I can build pretty much anything. Plans would help though...
Thank you all in advance for the help and please let me know if you need any more details.
BB
Mike BB,
Wecome!
No experience with the Wild Burro Audio drivers or open baffles, but read that they need some space from the back walls.
My first full-range DIY build was the BiB (Bigger is Better) design, which is pretty large in size (65" tall) but resonable footprint (11" x 16" IIRC). The build was for a friend and the drivers I used were Fostex FEE166EN. The BiB cabinet is pretty simple to build and they played very nicely with the Mini-watt N3. If placed 8-9' apart the should be reasonably close to corners in your room and have nice imaging.
Just looked up the Wild Burro Audio site - they state that the Betsy-K is suitable for BiBs too.
Good luck on your DIY journey!
Wecome!
No experience with the Wild Burro Audio drivers or open baffles, but read that they need some space from the back walls.
My first full-range DIY build was the BiB (Bigger is Better) design, which is pretty large in size (65" tall) but resonable footprint (11" x 16" IIRC). The build was for a friend and the drivers I used were Fostex FEE166EN. The BiB cabinet is pretty simple to build and they played very nicely with the Mini-watt N3. If placed 8-9' apart the should be reasonably close to corners in your room and have nice imaging.
Just looked up the Wild Burro Audio site - they state that the Betsy-K is suitable for BiBs too.
Good luck on your DIY journey!
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Thanks for the response Zman...
Are there any specific plans to build some BiB speakers that I could look at? I can find pictures of a lot of nice looking finished speakers but as to whats going on inside or what they're specific dimensions are, I have no idea. When I think I finally find a website with some info on it, the link is usually broken. Do I just build a giant box and put a driver in it? That's it?!
BB
Are there any specific plans to build some BiB speakers that I could look at? I can find pictures of a lot of nice looking finished speakers but as to whats going on inside or what they're specific dimensions are, I have no idea. When I think I finally find a website with some info on it, the link is usually broken. Do I just build a giant box and put a driver in it? That's it?!
BB
Mike BB,
The BiB definitely has plans - actually GM (Greg Monfort) made a calculator for the DIY community. You have to plug in the parameters to get the correct dimensions for the box. You can find more on this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/222549-fostex-fe206e-bib.html
The BiB definitely has plans - actually GM (Greg Monfort) made a calculator for the DIY community. You have to plug in the parameters to get the correct dimensions for the box. You can find more on this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/222549-fostex-fe206e-bib.html
Either there's an error when trying to use the linked spreadsheet in Open Office, or Betsy-K models to be one BIG BIB - 21" wide, 30" deep and 68" tall. Maybe a bit much for a small room?
I'd build an MLTL instead. Should work well in a room the size of yours. Easier to move later on, too.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/213904-wbal-betsy-k-small-40-hz-mltl.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/wild-burro-audio/182745-betsyk-ml-tl-tqwt.html
Bill
I'd build an MLTL instead. Should work well in a room the size of yours. Easier to move later on, too.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/213904-wbal-betsy-k-small-40-hz-mltl.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/wild-burro-audio/182745-betsyk-ml-tl-tqwt.html
Bill
Bill, maybe no error at all - sometimes a driver's T/S parameters simply call for large enclosures to deliver the maximum extension of frequency response and SPLs - as much as many of us would like to ignore them, sooner or later those danged laws of physics impact on our goals
That depends on what you want.
Typical questions:
12' X 18' isn't that small.
If the budget is low, or wanting to experience DIY speaker building in the most minimal way, I would suggest the Pioneer fullranger or its "equivalent" sold by Parts Express. Last time I checked they were $13 each or so. I see they now sell some of the Visaton drivers. The Visaton 3020 BG20 8" looks like it could suit pretty nicely. Of course there are so many choices. I do like the idea of fullrange single driver loudspeakers (if using subs then usually an active one or pair is is used) as no power-robbing passive crossover is required.
As your room is very similar in dimensions to mine I can tell you that typical OBs are out of the question, unless their is no SOAF requirement. The "Betsy" OB project on Wild Burro Audio's could be made to produce significantly more bass if the wings are always swept back and a top is made to keep the rear wave from folding around the baffle.
For more conventional speakers look at the planet10-hifi's plan library (chrisb is part of the planet10-hifi group). None of the planet10-hifi group make suggestions regarding their own products unless directly asked, as the appearance of self-promotion and pandering is not one they (chrisb, planet10 or Daniel) want to advance, in the "open forums, but thay answer questions in their own subforum within "Vendor's Bizarre". Their custom versions of fullrangers are much better than the price suggests, but they are not necessarily cheap (you'll have to check the website for current pricing, but I am very satisfied with a pair of the prime sized cabinets equipped with a pair of their CH70eN (gen1) drivers. Stands would be necessary. At some latter date, as space or funds or both become available then build some bass modules. The speakers would then become (in their nomenclature) a FAST system (Full range And Subwoofer ? Don't ask me what the acronym stands for).
There are numerous multi-way projects all over the internet. Good ones can be found here at diyaudio, just check the multi-way sub-forum. Bass reflex, Sealed cabinets, etc. If choosing one of these, check to see if members have built any, and take into account how expensive the crossover parts are. Good crossover parts can be very expensive (and hence my suggestion of a FR single driver based project). Look at Humble Homemade Hifi for one. Also look at Troels Graveson's page. There are just too many to list. The links are only examples. There are just so many choices and so many budgets. I think there must be links to most of these at the top of the multi-way loudspeaker forum page, and the fullrange loudspeaker forum page.
Typical questions:
- What type of music?
- What kind of impedance load?
- What budget?
- Realistically, how deep of bass response?
- Do you want a floor stander, bookshelf, OBs type?
- Will you consider using a subwoofer (or subwoofers)?
12' X 18' isn't that small.
If the budget is low, or wanting to experience DIY speaker building in the most minimal way, I would suggest the Pioneer fullranger or its "equivalent" sold by Parts Express. Last time I checked they were $13 each or so. I see they now sell some of the Visaton drivers. The Visaton 3020 BG20 8" looks like it could suit pretty nicely. Of course there are so many choices. I do like the idea of fullrange single driver loudspeakers (if using subs then usually an active one or pair is is used) as no power-robbing passive crossover is required.
As your room is very similar in dimensions to mine I can tell you that typical OBs are out of the question, unless their is no SOAF requirement. The "Betsy" OB project on Wild Burro Audio's could be made to produce significantly more bass if the wings are always swept back and a top is made to keep the rear wave from folding around the baffle.
For more conventional speakers look at the planet10-hifi's plan library (chrisb is part of the planet10-hifi group). None of the planet10-hifi group make suggestions regarding their own products unless directly asked, as the appearance of self-promotion and pandering is not one they (chrisb, planet10 or Daniel) want to advance, in the "open forums, but thay answer questions in their own subforum within "Vendor's Bizarre". Their custom versions of fullrangers are much better than the price suggests, but they are not necessarily cheap (you'll have to check the website for current pricing, but I am very satisfied with a pair of the prime sized cabinets equipped with a pair of their CH70eN (gen1) drivers. Stands would be necessary. At some latter date, as space or funds or both become available then build some bass modules. The speakers would then become (in their nomenclature) a FAST system (Full range And Subwoofer ? Don't ask me what the acronym stands for).
There are numerous multi-way projects all over the internet. Good ones can be found here at diyaudio, just check the multi-way sub-forum. Bass reflex, Sealed cabinets, etc. If choosing one of these, check to see if members have built any, and take into account how expensive the crossover parts are. Good crossover parts can be very expensive (and hence my suggestion of a FR single driver based project). Look at Humble Homemade Hifi for one. Also look at Troels Graveson's page. There are just too many to list. The links are only examples. There are just so many choices and so many budgets. I think there must be links to most of these at the top of the multi-way loudspeaker forum page, and the fullrange loudspeaker forum page.
Hi,
With allegedly 3.5W available per channel what you want is a high efficiency.
Something like :
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Solo-206_copy.pdf
A higher power active subwoofer is never going hurt.
rgds, sreten.
With allegedly 3.5W available per channel what you want is a high efficiency.
Something like :
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Solo-206_copy.pdf
A higher power active subwoofer is never going hurt.
rgds, sreten.
In a modestly sized room like that, and with at least a wall near the mouth, and with all but very high levels, many find the Frugel-Horn Mk3 with FE126 as a goodmatch -- i always use the opportunity to use the 3.9 watt RH84s in the system when i listen to our FH3/126. High WAF in most cases too.
Or 2 smaller ones, usually does not hurt with any system.
dave
Here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/172605-frugel-horn-mk3-89.html#post3256499
and the above set with the ~6 dB less efficient MA CHP70 (2nd gen IIRC)
dave
High Efficiency?
sreten: "With allegedly 3.5W available per channel what you want is a high efficiency."
True but high efficiency is not all that it's cracked up to be. I'll take a benign load over efficiency...Assuming that the efficiency is at least in the ball park.
My head-banging old hippie/rocker brother listens to double Advents with a Decware SE84C amplifier (2.5 watts/ch) at stupid levels without any problems. Would I do this? No, but it can be done. I would say that if lease breaking levels are not required and a fullrange single driver loudspeaker is to be used (and hence no loss due to the crossovers or ugly impedance curve) then something as low as even 86dB can be used. It all depends on how loud the OP wants to play the music.
Even with fairly inefficient loudspeakers in a similarly sized room, I don't need more than a few watts/ch about 90% of the time.
Something FE126-based should be more than efficient enough and if some bass extension is required perhaps the Frugalhorns could be the perfect thing, or something in the 160-200 mm size would work.
sreten: "With allegedly 3.5W available per channel what you want is a high efficiency."
True but high efficiency is not all that it's cracked up to be. I'll take a benign load over efficiency...Assuming that the efficiency is at least in the ball park.
My head-banging old hippie/rocker brother listens to double Advents with a Decware SE84C amplifier (2.5 watts/ch) at stupid levels without any problems. Would I do this? No, but it can be done. I would say that if lease breaking levels are not required and a fullrange single driver loudspeaker is to be used (and hence no loss due to the crossovers or ugly impedance curve) then something as low as even 86dB can be used. It all depends on how loud the OP wants to play the music.
Even with fairly inefficient loudspeakers in a similarly sized room, I don't need more than a few watts/ch about 90% of the time.
Something FE126-based should be more than efficient enough and if some bass extension is required perhaps the Frugalhorns could be the perfect thing, or something in the 160-200 mm size would work.
Thanks so much for the help and input! Again, I'm pretty new to this stuff so it's still a bit confusing but I can also see how it doesn't have to be.
So, I'm really intrigued by the Frugal Horn design. I like the size and I like the look. I've seen mention of certain Fostex drivers that have proven to be good choices for this design. Where would be a good place to purchase them? I'm thinking my budget would be around $150-200 for the drivers. I already have everything else I would need (plywood, etc).
BB
So, I'm really intrigued by the Frugal Horn design. I like the size and I like the look. I've seen mention of certain Fostex drivers that have proven to be good choices for this design. Where would be a good place to purchase them? I'm thinking my budget would be around $150-200 for the drivers. I already have everything else I would need (plywood, etc).
BB
So far we've only heard the 126 in the FH3, so to anticipate the next question - extrapolating our experience with the 125WK in other boxes:
- smoother through the upper midrange area in which many folks find the 126s "harsh", more extended in the bottom end without the need for corner reinforcement, and possibly requiring some damping below the driver
- exact same driver basket pattern as the 126
- the penalty to be paid is less sensitivity (based on experience with the Mark Audio drivers, vis a vis Fostex, unless you're talking 45 DHT amps or very large rooms/ high SPLS, this is often far less of an "issue" than the numbers would suggest )
Jodan JX92S
How about a Jordan JX92S? The VTL enclosure is supposed to sound nice and WAF is also given
http://documents.jordan-usa.com/Enclosures/JX92sSystems.pdf
Best
Michael
How about a Jordan JX92S? The VTL enclosure is supposed to sound nice and WAF is also given
http://documents.jordan-usa.com/Enclosures/JX92sSystems.pdf
Best
Michael
An update!
I finally got around to building a pair of Frugel Horns last week and just wrapped things up a couple hours. I'm listening to them right now and have been for the past 3 hours or so. I've got to say, I am COMPLETELY blown away by how good these sound. I mean really, I don't understand how one little 4" driver mounted in these boxes can sound so good. I'm amazed at the amount of things I'm noticing on songs I've listened to 100 times. It's also incredible to hear the artists breathing or shifting around in their chairs! I thought the bass was lacking so I stuck them in the corner a bit more and BAM...more bass. Perfect amount actually. I'm really just having the time of my life over here... I'll post pictures as soon as I'm done making them look pretty. I was so anxious to hear them that as soon as I mounted the driver I had one under each arm and was running out of my shop to get home as quick as possible. I just have a little veneer work to do and a few coats of finish.
Thanks to everyone for the help and a big thanks to everyone that had a hand in designing these things. I learned a couple tricks with the first build and I can't wait to make more! At $150 I'm going to start giving them out as presents... Pictures to some soon.
Mike
I finally got around to building a pair of Frugel Horns last week and just wrapped things up a couple hours. I'm listening to them right now and have been for the past 3 hours or so. I've got to say, I am COMPLETELY blown away by how good these sound. I mean really, I don't understand how one little 4" driver mounted in these boxes can sound so good. I'm amazed at the amount of things I'm noticing on songs I've listened to 100 times. It's also incredible to hear the artists breathing or shifting around in their chairs! I thought the bass was lacking so I stuck them in the corner a bit more and BAM...more bass. Perfect amount actually. I'm really just having the time of my life over here...
I'll post pictures as soon as I'm done making them look pretty. I was so anxious to hear them that as soon as I mounted the driver I had one under each arm and was running out of my shop to get home as quick as possible. I just have a little veneer work to do and a few coats of finish. Thanks to everyone for the help and a big thanks to everyone that had a hand in designing these things. I learned a couple tricks with the first build and I can't wait to make more! At $150 I'm going to start giving them out as presents...
Pictures to some soon.Mike
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