Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Everything Else Anything related to audio / video / electronics etc) BUT remember- we have many new forums where your thread may now fit! .... Parts, Equipment & Tools, Construction Tips, Software Tools......

Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?
Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
View Poll Results: Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?
John is original file 5 50.00%
Paul is original file 3 30.00%
I prefer John by listening 5 50.00%
I prefer Paul by listening 3 30.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th November 2018, 02:41 PM   #1
KSTR is offline KSTR  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
KSTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Central Berlin, Germany
Default Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?

Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?

Inspired by PMA's listening tests, I've set up another one that might be interesting.
One file is the original and the other is a threefold(!) iteration of a playback and recording process with DAC+ADC connected with loopback cables (1.5m RCA's of the cheapest variety).

Dropbox - org-vs-3x(DA-AD).zip

Please vote and post your impressions:
- do you hear a difference?
- do you prefer one of the files?
- can you identify the orignal?
If you opt to do an ABX test, please post the logfile.

Details:
0) Device used was a RME Adi-2 Pro FS connected via USB, thus the record-while-playback processes were sample-synchronous.
1) Original file had to be reduced by 3dB because it caused some intersample overs, and was saved as newly dithered 24-bit data.
2) All playback/recording was at 44.1kHz/24bit, saved as 32bit floating-point data to avoid additional dithering.
3) The filters of the ADC and DAC were set to "sharp", which means linear-phase filters with sharp cutoff, a common choice.
4) The level of the analog link was set to +4dBu@0dBFS, for realistic real-life levels.
5) While levels were matched in the RME, the threefold iteration still caused a 0.22dB overall loss of level which has been corrected for after the last AD process and saved again as newly ditherered 24bit data.
6) Time offset has been precisly adjusted to remove any accidental clues in direct A/B from this offset during switching. This also allows to use crossfade option for the ABX which I like better than the short gap that is introduced by foobar's ABX which sort of irritates me.

Have fun!

Last edited by KSTR; 25th November 2018 at 02:46 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2018, 04:17 PM   #2
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Hi Klaus,

thanks for the test, I have downloaded the files. I will need some time to make an ABX, this looks to be a tough one . I will send some comments in a PM, later. Thanks again!

BTW, RME ADI is a very accurate one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2018, 05:09 PM   #3
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Hehe, hereby my result. Both files sound same, maybe there is a slightest difference?

Good file names, files are probably closer

Code:
foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2018-11-25 18:02:19

File A: John.flac
SHA1: 342e8e2481768f09a9ef4e61289f46c44c7ec7dd
File B: Paul.flac
SHA1: 187cfd12d0ca41c93281010f94cffc61986c4162

Output:
WASAPI (event) : OUT (DUO-CAPTURE EX), 24-bit
Crossfading: NO

18:02:19 : Test started.
18:03:52 : 01/01
18:04:03 : 02/02
18:04:18 : 02/03
18:04:32 : 03/04
18:04:50 : 03/05
18:05:00 : 03/06
18:05:08 : 03/07
18:05:17 : 03/08
18:05:25 : 04/09
18:05:33 : 04/10
18:05:39 : 05/11
18:05:55 : 05/12
18:06:01 : 06/13
18:06:07 : 07/14
18:06:24 : 07/15
18:06:38 : 08/16
18:06:38 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 8/16
Probability that you were guessing: 59.8%

 -- signature -- 
a27bbea2c33088ee4b05c00bbedb605e06017ca6
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2018, 11:25 PM   #4
Pano is offline Pano  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
Pano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SW Florida
Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?
You went thru them very fast!
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2018, 10:19 AM   #5
xx3stksm is offline xx3stksm  Japan
diyAudio Member
 
xx3stksm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Hokkaido(north area)
Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?
I also can't hear the difference. I can only "see" the difference. John is probably the original. Recent ADC and DAC are too excellent to find an audible difference. It's surprising both have almost the same sampling data after three times conversion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2018, 10:24 AM   #6
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Yes, only some linear (phase) shifts, reflected above 20kHz mostly. I thought I heard some difference in ambience, but my results are constantly like 6/16 - 8/16.

Klaus, have you been equalizing for linear (phase) differences? It seems so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2018, 10:50 AM   #7
xx3stksm is offline xx3stksm  Japan
diyAudio Member
 
xx3stksm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Hokkaido(north area)
Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?
Synchronous sampling can guarantee even phase information though I don't think a human can detect phase distortion. Asynchronous sampling may have the same result. The attached is visual data. White dots are the sampling points.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg paul.jpg (119.0 KB, 310 views)
File Type: jpg john.jpg (120.3 KB, 304 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2018, 10:55 AM   #8
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Quote:
Originally Posted by xx3stksm View Post
Synchronous sampling can guarantee even phase information though I don't think a human can detect phase distortion. Asynchronous sampling may have the same result. The attached is visual data. White dots are the sampling points.
Yes I know that synchronous D/A A/D sampling guarantees right timing. However, the inserted D/A A/D compared to the original rip inevitably introduces slight analog phase changes and also top-end sharp digital filter slight changes. That was my point.

I have my own CoolEdit Pro analysis, but did not want to show before the poll expires, as this is a listening test.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2018, 03:43 PM   #9
maty tinman is offline maty tinman  Spain
diyAudio Member
 
maty tinman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tarragona (Spain)
Very easy test, again! John has the best sound and must be the original.

Without ABX. J River MC 64 bits off course (better sound that foobar2000 32 bits in my system).
__________________
"Comment is free, but facts are sacred" - C. P. Scott *** 40 years of the Spanish Constitution, My musical celebration
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2018, 03:49 PM   #10
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Yes, without the ABX, everyone is convinced he hears the difference even if the files are identical. How about an ABX result, Maty?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Can you tell original file from three times DA-AD converted?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can you tell original file from tube amp record? - test PMA Everything Else 770 18th December 2018 08:11 AM
.slb file (translated library file)...! spice freak Solid State 0 28th October 2008 04:20 PM
4-pin mic converted to a 2-pin electret mic? silentblackhat Solid State 1 10th January 2008 07:50 PM
File Uploader - php script with file validation lineup The Lounge 5 11th February 2007 10:09 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:57 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki