Would definitely be interesting to trace that comment back to its origin.
Many incarnations ago, I recall sitting in a college dorm room, chatting and listening to music with some other guys, when somebody noticed you could actually see - with the unaided eye - the undulations of the groove on a particular LP track. In short order, the slide rules appeared (this was before electronic calculators . . .) and we estimated the frequency of that note. As I recall, it was around 30 Hz. Wish I could remember what album and cut it was on - possibly Emerson, Lake & Palmer?
Dale
p.s. - Re-reading that post I guess it doesn't really say much about frequency response of the vinyl LP as a recording medium, but it certainly DOES reinforce a stereotype I picked up about that same time: "Engineers can be decent husbands, but no self-respecting girl would be caught dead with one at a party.".
Many incarnations ago, I recall sitting in a college dorm room, chatting and listening to music with some other guys, when somebody noticed you could actually see - with the unaided eye - the undulations of the groove on a particular LP track. In short order, the slide rules appeared (this was before electronic calculators . . .) and we estimated the frequency of that note. As I recall, it was around 30 Hz. Wish I could remember what album and cut it was on - possibly Emerson, Lake & Palmer?
Dale
p.s. - Re-reading that post I guess it doesn't really say much about frequency response of the vinyl LP as a recording medium, but it certainly DOES reinforce a stereotype I picked up about that same time: "Engineers can be decent husbands, but no self-respecting girl would be caught dead with one at a party.".
I think you also have to separate any limitations of vinyl with mastering practices that often purposely limit the the lower end for various marketing reasons.... like fitting more fitting more music on a side , etc .
Also vinyl has to be mastered to play on any turntable/stylus combo no matter how bad it may be..
BTW, I have a vintage "Stereo Review" test/set up record that has warble tones down to to 20 hz and my sub reproduces it so....
In any event, there is often very little content if any below 50hz in pop/rock music anyway and there are other thing that make vinyl sound better over all than digital
Also vinyl has to be mastered to play on any turntable/stylus combo no matter how bad it may be..
BTW, I have a vintage "Stereo Review" test/set up record that has warble tones down to to 20 hz and my sub reproduces it so....
In any event, there is often very little content if any below 50hz in pop/rock music anyway and there are other thing that make vinyl sound better over all than digital
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I think you also have to separate any limitations of vinyl with mastering practices that often purposely limit the the lower end for various marketing reasons.... like fitting more fitting more music on a side , etc .
In any event, there is often very little content if any below 50hz anyway in pop/rock music and there are other thing that make vinyl sound better over all than digital
I think that the ~50Hz RIAA turnover frequency is being confused with an actual bass roll off.
There is no actual lower bandwidth limit to LPs, although the tonearm resonance around 10Hz can set an effective useful limit.
Sometimes bass is deliberately reduced, to allow increased playing time.
Possibly this, from their first album "Emerson, Lake & Palmer".
Emerson, Lake & Palmer - The Three Fates
The opening organ notes fall in the same frequency range I remember as the result of our rough calculations, so that may have been the cut we were looking at.
Dale
Telarc Disk # DG10041 (digitally recorded to vinyl pressing) features the Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture recorded with live cannon shots. The liner notes indicate that the 16 cannon shots go down as low as 6Hz. I’m not sure how this was determined, but the grooves in this area of the disk are clearly visible to the “naked eye”. No magnifying glass is needed! The notes also indicate that windows in a building several hundred feet away from the cannons were “blown out” during the recording process.
I wonder how many home audio systems were "blown out" trying to play this thing!
I wonder how many home audio systems were "blown out" trying to play this thing!
Low bass notes and long playing times lead to records that skip. Back when the ELP records came out I had a Gerrard SL-72B turntable, which was decent in its day. I don't remember the cart I had at the time, but it played all the vinyl I had at the time with a relatively low tracking force. Both of the ELP records, no problem.....The killer was Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love. I had to crank the tracking force up to play that record without skipping. Otherwise it skipped in the same place every time. The guy in the hippie record shop swapped the record, and said that there were a few other complaints from users with good stereos.
I don't remember the record but one side ended with a song that sounded like the turntable was switched off while playing so the song just slowed down to zero. The frequency of the grove modulation extended down into the blown woofer zone where you could seen the cones moving in an out when the old record was played on my Carver / Phase Linear system of the 80's. At the time I had just purchased a manual Technics turntable that would play the "arm pickup area" of the record forever. I still use that turntable today.
I don't remember the record but one side ended with a song that sounded like the turntable was switched off while playing so the song just slowed down to zero. The frequency of the grove modulation extended down into the blown woofer zone where you could seen the cones moving in an out when the old record was played on my Carver / Phase Linear system of the 80's. At the time I had just purchased a manual Technics turntable that would play the "arm pickup area" of the record forever. I still use that turntable today.
Speaking of the memory hole.....ever have something slide into memory, forgotten forever, only to pop up years later? This time it was 50 years.
I listened to pop radio a lot in my younger years. I was trying to learn the guitar parts to some of the popular songs of the 60's. There were songs that we all knew, and some I could even play on guitar. Those are still in recallable memory.
A few days ago a TV commercial triggered one of those "song in your head" moments. The song was not even related to the commercial. At first it was just the word "searching", but within a minute or so I had recalled scattered parts of the song, and even the song and artist's name.....Keep Searchin, Del Shannon, 1964.
Why does some useless information from 50 years ago pop up at random times, yet we can't remember what we had for dinner yesterday, or things like birthdays or anniversaries that come yearly?
I listened to pop radio a lot in my younger years. I was trying to learn the guitar parts to some of the popular songs of the 60's. There were songs that we all knew, and some I could even play on guitar. Those are still in recallable memory.
A few days ago a TV commercial triggered one of those "song in your head" moments. The song was not even related to the commercial. At first it was just the word "searching", but within a minute or so I had recalled scattered parts of the song, and even the song and artist's name.....Keep Searchin, Del Shannon, 1964.
Why does some useless information from 50 years ago pop up at random times, yet we can't remember what we had for dinner yesterday, or things like birthdays or anniversaries that come yearly?
Yeah, I recall that Del Shannon song on the radio.
Music may be remembered via a different mechanism than other memories. My wife has a lot of contact - both personally and vocationally - with elderly people, many of whom are afflicted with various degrees of dementia. From time to time I am with my wife when she visits elderly friends or clients and I've seen first-hand the effects of music. When circumstances permit, she will sit at a piano (the instruments in elderly care facilities all seem to be in poor condition!) and play songs. She often carries an old hymnal or two, and a large anthology of popular music spanning about 1900 - 1960. As the nursing home staff bring residents to wherever my wife is playing, it's amazing the number who try (and sometimes succeed) to sing along with the songs. Some of these people can barely remember their first name, much less where they live or other details of their surroundings, but they know phrases, choruses, and sometimes whole verses from hymns and songs they haven't sung in decades.
I recall one elderly lady, mother of a friend in our neighborhood, whom my wife helped at bedtime from time to time as needed. The old lady had a reputation for being somewhat obstinate and uncooperative with outside helpers. My wife discovered that she became quite compliant if you could engage her with a familiar song. Now, what was "familiar" on one day may be totally unfamiliar on another, but "Doxology" ("Praise God from Whom all blessings flow . . . ") seemed to work most of the time. The problem was that it was too short to complete all the bedtime tasks that needed doing.
Dale
Some of it may be due to the information being coupled to other sensory stimuli at the time it was committed to memory. The simultaneous presence of a unique or unusual smell, sound, or tactile sensation may reinforce the memory, make it more easily recalled, or provide an additional "trigger" that recalls the memory at unexpected times.
Music may be remembered via a different mechanism than other memories. My wife has a lot of contact - both personally and vocationally - with elderly people, many of whom are afflicted with various degrees of dementia. From time to time I am with my wife when she visits elderly friends or clients and I've seen first-hand the effects of music. When circumstances permit, she will sit at a piano (the instruments in elderly care facilities all seem to be in poor condition!) and play songs. She often carries an old hymnal or two, and a large anthology of popular music spanning about 1900 - 1960. As the nursing home staff bring residents to wherever my wife is playing, it's amazing the number who try (and sometimes succeed) to sing along with the songs. Some of these people can barely remember their first name, much less where they live or other details of their surroundings, but they know phrases, choruses, and sometimes whole verses from hymns and songs they haven't sung in decades.
I recall one elderly lady, mother of a friend in our neighborhood, whom my wife helped at bedtime from time to time as needed. The old lady had a reputation for being somewhat obstinate and uncooperative with outside helpers. My wife discovered that she became quite compliant if you could engage her with a familiar song. Now, what was "familiar" on one day may be totally unfamiliar on another, but "Doxology" ("Praise God from Whom all blessings flow . . . ") seemed to work most of the time. The problem was that it was too short to complete all the bedtime tasks that needed doing.
Dale
Many churches sing the Doxology at the close of every service so this song is easily imprinted into memory and reinforced every week. Amazing Grace is another one that sometimes worked on my mom.
My mom had a severe near fatal stroke which left her with severe dementia and the inability to speak coherent sentences. Old pictures were a common trigger of old memories that would provoke joy and often a few coherent words and even a name or two. She however did not recognize her own children or know their names. She listened to pop radio from as far back as I can remember to about the late 60's when she thought music had turned rotten (her words). I tried some of her favorite music from the time period, but she didn't want to hear any of it.
I was in a sports bar last week when the memory event happened. There were probably 20 TV's playing different sporting events each with closed captioning and some with sound. Sherri and I were watching the trivia game and playing along. The questions were not related to music, but some were from the 60's time period, so I thought that was the trigger. I remember seeing a bunch of commercials on the TV adjacent to the TV we were watching.
Yesterday we were visiting some friends who were watching an NFL game. I can't remember who was playing! A car commercial came on and it became clear. As the commercial ended an SUV rode off into the sunset and the words "Follow the Sun" appeared on the screen for an instant. I don't recall that particular commercial from the sports bar, but it must have been the trigger, because those words are in that song.
A couple years ago I attended a conference, where a doctor of psychology (researcher) presented a convincing dissertation, complete with documented examples, showing that music can often improve outcomes and shorten recovery times from traumatic injuries and illnesses.
One of the great appeals of good music is that often jogs the memory, and invokes memories of positive and pleasurable events of the past. Positive attitude invokes motivation and well being, both being necessary to progress through the trials of life.
It’s interesting that while certain music can create feelings of sadness, only rarely does it cause the recall of negative feelings or a depressing state.
One of the great appeals of good music is that often jogs the memory, and invokes memories of positive and pleasurable events of the past. Positive attitude invokes motivation and well being, both being necessary to progress through the trials of life.
It’s interesting that while certain music can create feelings of sadness, only rarely does it cause the recall of negative feelings or a depressing state.
My brother goes on about this - if I remember correctly it is Beethoven's music that works best.
On another note - a lot of oversampling and equalizing goes on these days and when analyzed it will be detected that a large majority of the music after this processing starts producing sound (building up) to the actual impact of sound (e.g. drums), this does not happen in real life and with the "good old analogue" gear.
Over the past 15 years or so that short piece has all but disappeared from churches my wife and I have attended. That's especially sad for us, because we had our guests stand and sing that song with us at the end of our wedding service . . . right after being introduced as "Mr. and Mrs Dale Chisholm" for the very first time . . . quite likely the most joyous moment of my life . . . Talk about being "imprinted" - that has now been "our song" for over 40 years!
I can understand why "Follow the Sun" would be a trigger: in the Del Shannon performance, the producer added special emphasis to that phrase in several ways, making it the "hook" that people would remember, sing over and over again, remind them to buy the record, etc.
Dale
This seems to be true. It was a staple in the old Presbyterian church that I attended throughout my childhood years. It was also commonly heard in the Baptist church I went to as a young adult. For the last 6 years or so in Florida we went to one of those large non denominational churches that had a band with guitars, drums, keyboards, a banjo, mandolin and a few other assorted musical instruments. There was a wide music selection, but no Doxology.
Now that we are in rural West Virginia, yes, the church sings the Doxology, but not at every service.
I think the first word that came into my head was the "we-ooo" that follows the sun. Then the pieces started coming together.
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