I knew that of course. But sometimes you don't want to patent some knowledge and want to make it public domain instead.
So what can be done to really make it really public domain without risking that someone else is still able to patent it ? Is publishing on the WEB really sufficient ?
Regards
Charles
Patents and Public Domain
Once you have published something (and that includes Web publication), you have put it into the public domain. If you haven't applied for a patent, in most countries (not the US), you have lost the right to do so. In the US, you have one year from public disclosure to file. And once you've filed in, say, the US, you've established a priority date for Europe and you can publish without losing your right to file in Europe (as long as you file within a year of US application).
Complicated? You bet.
Now... in theory, someone can see what you've done and go try to patent it themselves. And they might even get the patent- but it won't be enforceable. In Europe, the application is posted publicly and the examination process will consider prior art brought in by anyone else. So, if someone has swiped a circuit that you've already published, you can knock out the possibility of them getting the patent for the cost of a letter to the Patent Office.
Unfortunately, this is not the case in the US. Until recently, all applications were held in secret until the patent issued. This caused problems with so-called submarine applications. As a halfway measure, the USPTO now publishes applications- but unlike Europe, the examiner will not look at submissions of prior art from anyone other than the applicant. So, if you see someone has swiped your public domain work, you have to wait until the patent issues, then go to USPTO to request re-examination in light of prior art that hadn't been considered.
I've personally been on the wrong end of this sort of abuse, where competitors have obtained patents on old technologies or even on new stuff that I developed and already had on the market. It can be fought successfully, but not cheaply.
All this keeps lawyers in BMWs and Montrachet.
Once you have published something (and that includes Web publication), you have put it into the public domain. If you haven't applied for a patent, in most countries (not the US), you have lost the right to do so. In the US, you have one year from public disclosure to file. And once you've filed in, say, the US, you've established a priority date for Europe and you can publish without losing your right to file in Europe (as long as you file within a year of US application).
Complicated? You bet.
Now... in theory, someone can see what you've done and go try to patent it themselves. And they might even get the patent- but it won't be enforceable. In Europe, the application is posted publicly and the examination process will consider prior art brought in by anyone else. So, if someone has swiped a circuit that you've already published, you can knock out the possibility of them getting the patent for the cost of a letter to the Patent Office.
Unfortunately, this is not the case in the US. Until recently, all applications were held in secret until the patent issued. This caused problems with so-called submarine applications. As a halfway measure, the USPTO now publishes applications- but unlike Europe, the examiner will not look at submissions of prior art from anyone other than the applicant. So, if you see someone has swiped your public domain work, you have to wait until the patent issues, then go to USPTO to request re-examination in light of prior art that hadn't been considered.
I've personally been on the wrong end of this sort of abuse, where competitors have obtained patents on old technologies or even on new stuff that I developed and already had on the market. It can be fought successfully, but not cheaply.
All this keeps lawyers in BMWs and Montrachet.
This thread is interesting to me, because I've helped a couple different people learn how to rebuild their Quad ESL speakers. I've had lengthy e-mail and phone conversations with them to teach them some of the subtleties and get their speakers working. I gladly help people to get their own speakers working for the enjoyment of those classics. But on two occasions, those people went out with the knowledge I shared and started offering rebuilds, now in direct competition with me. That bothered me a bit.
I still offer my complete designs on the web (for what they are worth) because this is a hobby for me, and my real money is made at work. I couldn't sleep at night if I had to rely on flakey audiophiles for my mortgage payment. So I keep my designs a sideline that gives me a little extra spending money and keeps the stress low.
But it really bothers me to see my work show up elsewhere without credit. I don't want money for them, just a little recognition. I don't have anything amazingly clever...
Sheldon
I still offer my complete designs on the web (for what they are worth) because this is a hobby for me, and my real money is made at work. I couldn't sleep at night if I had to rely on flakey audiophiles for my mortgage payment. So I keep my designs a sideline that gives me a little extra spending money and keeps the stress low.
But it really bothers me to see my work show up elsewhere without credit. I don't want money for them, just a little recognition. I don't have anything amazingly clever...
Sheldon
Sorry, there's some misinformation on this thread. When you publish something, in paper or on the web, or otherwise fix your ideas into a tangible form, that work is under copyright. The copyright is in effect automatically. You do not need to apply for it. For works under copyright, which is most things, the author holds exclusive rights described in USC Title 17. Laws in other nations may differ.
This is very different from being in the public domain. The public domain consists of works which are no longer covered under copyright, either because the copyright has expired or because the copyright holder has placed the work in the public domain explicitly. Anybody can do whatever they want with works in the public domain.
This is very different from being in the public domain. The public domain consists of works which are no longer covered under copyright, either because the copyright has expired or because the copyright holder has placed the work in the public domain explicitly. Anybody can do whatever they want with works in the public domain.
IP
IP does not have to be patented, or have a copyright. It is as simple as a method you use to do your accounting. It can be some electronic method of encryption or a manufacturing process.
Again when I was at TI, the fellows that started Compaq computers worked in the same building. When they left and started building computers many of them had built mini computers at TI. Of course TI sued over IP and won. So this was not over the design but stuff they had learned while at TI about manufacturing, processes and more.
IP does not have to be patented, or have a copyright. It is as simple as a method you use to do your accounting. It can be some electronic method of encryption or a manufacturing process.
Again when I was at TI, the fellows that started Compaq computers worked in the same building. When they left and started building computers many of them had built mini computers at TI. Of course TI sued over IP and won. So this was not over the design but stuff they had learned while at TI about manufacturing, processes and more.
phase_accurate said:
There is some legal history on this. The criterium is that "those experienced in the trade" should have a reasonable chance to pick it up. So, if you publish in a national newspaper science column, that's prior art. If you publish in an obscure local community paper with 400 circulation, it will most probably not. In other words, in the latter case it would still be patentable.
I don't know how internet publishing counts, but if the page is deleted and nobody comes up with a hardcopy, it will be nearly impossible to prove that indeed it was published, so it would still be patentable. Even if you had witnesses, it would be difficult to establish exactly what it was that was described, which of course is cricial in any patent case. The solution is to make a hardcopy and deposit it with a notary. This method is also often used to prove original work. The date of deposit establishes the date when you developed the idea.
If you're really interested, consider to buy this book http://www.nolo.com/lawstore/products/product.cfm/objectID/139AEDE9-69A0-4810-A7A87D2AD5422664. I did.
Jan Didden
Lack of prior art is often not enough to grant a patent
Not only is prior art a factor in the granting of a patent, but also whether or not the invention itself is considered to be novel and not obvious to someone with knowledge in the field.
For example, let's suppose someone patented a cardboard PCB, just because you build your PCB out of paper for less weight does not make it patentable. Novel, maybe, but not necessarily patentable. It may be considered obvious to an expert in PCB materials that paper is the next logical step in reducing weight. Now if you use paper with dimples on it for thermodynamic effect, you may be granted a patent. .... Dammit, now that I put this idea out in the public domain I can't patent it. (heh!)
ensen.
Not only is prior art a factor in the granting of a patent, but also whether or not the invention itself is considered to be novel and not obvious to someone with knowledge in the field.
For example, let's suppose someone patented a cardboard PCB, just because you build your PCB out of paper for less weight does not make it patentable. Novel, maybe, but not necessarily patentable. It may be considered obvious to an expert in PCB materials that paper is the next logical step in reducing weight. Now if you use paper with dimples on it for thermodynamic effect, you may be granted a patent. .... Dammit, now that I put this idea out in the public domain I can't patent it. (heh!)
ensen.
subwo1 said:
You can patent engineering, but usually not math or science. Since an electronic circuit is an engineered application, it can be patented, if it passes all the tests. An equation is an idea and thus considered natural. Like any discovery, they are merely
"found" and not created. The paper outlining a mathematical proof can be copyrighted and plagiarism of the idea can be academically and financially expensive for the infringer. If you uncover a scientific principle, you might be able to trademark a name for it, ie. Moore's Law.
ensen.
janneman said:
Just remembered: Some people actually very carefully do this: They publish it wide enough so that nobody else can patent it anymore, but no TOO wide to avoid that immediately some one else starts marketing it. This way you avoid patent costs, avoid others to patent it, and you get a headstart to skim the market. But you are threading a narrow path here. These are the things people do to, as SY remarked, cloth the kids, pay the rent and eat regularly.
Jan Didden
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