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diyAudio Member
Joined 2007
Don't have anything new to say, I just wanted to be the FIRST to post in the new section.

I do the usual cheap and easy tweaking, adding foam or fibre to speaker boxes I get for free, perhaps the replacement of a capacitor with bigger values, increasing the size of the wire internally.

Just the usual cheap tricks really

Regards
 
And so I can assume that you have personal listening experience and have compared cyro treated wire to no cryo treated wire to come to this conclusion that it is "witchcraft "as you say.

So what are you going to say when I say with all conviction that different makes , models, and brands, of AC outlets sound different and that Cryo treating them can improve them?
 
Just another Moderator
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Yep I agree Moondog, though I wouldn't just restrict to speakers :) Amps, sources whatever.

My Playmaster Series 200 has had a number of tweaks over the years. One was adding some resistors and changing a cap value at a particular point in the preamp, which completely eliminated a problem I had with oscillation. Now that is IMO a good tweak! Can't remember the details, and the chances that anyone else is using a series 200 that is likely to read this is extremely low, but the Playmaster 60/60 had a virtually identical preamp section, and I modded my Series 200 to match that. I figured they must have made the change for a reason, and obviously they had :)

Another was at the suggestion of some others in the forum to add some emitter resistors at a particular point in the poweramp circuit, from memory this resulted in measurably lower distortion.

Yet another was me making a lead sheild for my toroidal, which resulted in a very audible reduction in wideband noise that was being picked up by the preamp section.

I'm sure I could go on though for my particular mods no one will really be interested. I'm sure there are plenty with mods that will be of more interest to the wider DIY community. Some of these will be measurable, some may not be, but any that result in an improvement for the person doing the mod, whether they be tangible or intangible I think rightly fits in this forum.

If someone posts that they found that drawing a pentagram on top of all of their capacitors with a particular brand of black marker pen improved their sonics then good for them. There is no way that I would try it, but if you don't believe it, then ignore it. There is no point trying to tell someone that they don't hear what they hear, if they hear it, and it makes them happy then all the better for them :) It doesn't hurt anyone else, and hey if psycoacoustics works for them then why not ;)

Tony.
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2007
Unless you can provide verified data that supports the treatment I'd just ignore the post.

I do not have the time and money to waste on liquid helium for a pointless exercise as I do have access to a lab with sensitive enough equipment to measure sonically undetectable variations
 
Just another Moderator
Joined 2003
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And so I can assume that you have personal listening experience and have compared cyro treated wire to no cryo treated wire to come to this conclusion that it is "witchcraft "as you say.

So what are you going to say when I say with all conviction that different makes , models, and brands, of AC outlets sound different and that Cryo treating them can improve them?

I can see that cyro treatment could potentially alter the physical makeup of the wire which may affect it's conductivity, which may in turn affect the sound. This is looking at it from a purely scientific point of view. Whther there are effects that are not immediately obvious, because we don't have any scientific explanation for them is another thing that is hotly debated.... It is human nature to discount anything that can't be explained. As I said in my previous post if it makes a difference for you then all the better, as in the end you as the person listening is really the only one that matters.

One debate that has raged for a long time is whether different capacitors make a difference. A read of Walt Jungs article on capacitors should enlighten anyone who has doubts. A lot of people who doubt will do so because the person is saying "using this cap made a difference" but doesn't have any scientific proof to back it up. The person my not have the knowlege or the equipment to come up with proof (or it may not actually be possible to measure the thing that makes a difference) but their ears will tell them there is a difference. A read of Walt's article should make a doubter realise that there are very real differences which can be measured, and just beacuse the person making the claim is not able to do this measurement/proof does not mean that their claims are invalid :)

I think the spirit of a tweaking forum is more that people like to tweak things, and if others do the same and like the results, who cares whether there is any scientific explanation for why it worked ;)

Tony.
 
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Just another Moderator
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It doesn't hurt anyone else, and hey if psycoacoustics works for them then why not ;)

Tony.

reflecting on the above it was at odds with the rest of my post where I was trying to be neutral, I should not be implying that anything not measureable is psycho-acoustics, but rather that it might be, or it may be that we just haven't discovered the measurement that will prove a particular effect. I must state however, that I personally am usually very skeptical of certain claims especially when the products or treatements being offered have an extremely high price associated with them, but even if if it is only psyco-acoustics, then if it works and the person paying for it is happy then who are we to rain on their parade :)

Tony.
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
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I really hope the moderators don't let good ideas get squashed here by these audio hillbillys who can divine the truth through immaculate misconception. Which means they don't ever have to listen to "know" something can't work. Or maybe it's just they can't hear?

I'll have to double check with Mark, but IIRC from discussions long, long ago, in a place far away, the intent of this forum is to give room for sensible discussion of things that so far are beyond the ken of statistical proof... a place where the edges can be explored as well as solid well proven tweeks.

dave
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2007
OK Tony, but it really has nothing to do with "Tweaking " as such and while I do try and try maintain an objective POV, I still maintain that if a difference can't be measured it doesn't exist.
Sound is subjective and perhaps psychoacoustics rules.

I have to say that the reply from KL was the first instance of deliberate rudeness I personally have encountered in this forum.

Perhaps KL should visit a dictionary for a definition of Cryogenics before shooting the messenger??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenics
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2007
Bigger values AS IN using a higher voltage rating, not capacitance value.

If people think Cryo treating has value; start a new thread, then people can debate that aspect of tweaking ( if such a treatment can be regarded as tweaking )

I can appreciate that using a wire at an ultra-low temperature will have different characteristics copper has no memory, behavior that related to low temperature will return to normal when the copper returns to room temperature.
Room temperature itself is highly variable too.
 
Just another Moderator
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OK Tony, but it really has nothing to do with "Tweaking " as such and while I do try and try maintain an objective POV, I still maintain that if a difference can't be measured it doesn't exist.
Sound is subjective and perhaps psychoacoustics rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenics

Yes sticking crystal on top of my CD player to have some smoothing effect on the music or perhaps sticking some pyramids on top of my speakers I wouldn't consider a tweak either ;) The sort of stuff I mentioned in my first post I would however consider tweaks.

I personally think that psychoacoustics probably plays a much bigger part than most people would admit! As I said I am very skeptical about a lot of things ( I think my pentagram example illustrates that ;) ) but I do also believe it is possible that there are differences which it may not be that we can't measure, it is just that we don't know what it is that we need to measure to quantify the difference.

Just because the things we know to measure don't show a difference doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't something we don't know how to measure that would clearly show that there is a difference.. Of course that can also be used as a cop out/catch all.

I'm sure that there have been many discoveries throughout history that when first presented would have been considered witchcraft but now make up the basis of what we accept as reality!

As you can tell I'm a fence sitter, I lean towards the scientific side but leave some room for the benefit of the doubt ;)

I don't know enough about the physics of copper to know one way or another whether any changes it undergoes when super chilled are permanent or not (but I'll take your word for it that it doesn't). This is the beauty of some of these treatments.... they are based on some semblance of truth (eg people know that super conductors can be made by chilling the wire to extremely cold levels, I've read that it only remains a super conductor while that low temperature remains, but will the average person know that? Annealing metals changes their properties, so why not super chilling... If someone charges a small fortune to perform this service, Is it a case of some taking advantage of others, maybe... but unfortunately I'm just not in a position to prove it either way so I will sit on the fence :) How do you even know if the wires have even been super chilled unless you actually watch them do it? Does a wire that the salesman says has been super chilled (but hasn't) sound better than one that is a normal wire?

Tony.
 
I really couldn't care less.

I see that ignorance is bliss here and you can have all the bliss you like without me.

This is not a forum for discussing anything that can't be measured? Tweakers, HA! It sure isn't a sanctuary.

A hifi is designed to do one thing. That has nothing to do with being measured. It's sole purpose is to listen to recorded music and to reproduce said recorded music.

Why don't you just go ahead and ban me too?

Like I said I will not participate in this Junior hi school sort of stuff you let pass as passive aggressive politeness, and then you delete my post. At least my post was honest and didn't put down tweaks I have not tried or listened to.

By the way, what about Steve Eddy? What is he doing here? What about his long running campaign on AA "Boycott DIY Audio" what the hell is that guy doing here. Now that I see him I know is it a lost cause and a hang out for people I don't want to associate with anyway. He got mad because you edited a word out of his post yet he is gleeful that mine got deleted. Grow up Steve.

Boycott Steve Eddy
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
but I do also believe it is possible that there are differences which it may not be that we can't measure, it is just that we don't know what it is that we need to measure to quantify the difference.

Just because the things we know to measure don't show a difference doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't something we don't know how to measure that would clearly show that there is a difference..

This is pretty much my feeling... everything can be measured but that we have yet to figure out how to make those measures, and more importantly how they correlate to what 2 ears + a brain hear.

Floyd Toole's lastest book has made a real impression on me... he stresses the importance of this last point over & over again. And that -- at least when speakers are concerned -- a mic + an analyzer comes in a far 2nd to 2 ears + a brain in capability. One of his achievement over the body of his work was to correlate FR to fidelity as heard by 2 ears + brain. I've had this thrown one at me quite often. Turns out when Floyd talks about FR he is talking about a metric based on 70 measures done in an anechoic chamber capable down to at least the transition point. Turns out that on-axis FR is not all that indicative by itself.


I'm sure that there have been many discoveries throughout history that when first presented would have been considered witchcraft but now make up the basis of what we accept as reality!

Magnetism. Black holes. One can stroll thru history and find lots. Discovery usually starts with a human sensory observation followed up by a lot of experiments.

dave
 
frugal-phile™
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In other words this is just like Audio Asylum where naysayers and audio hillbillys ignore science, not to mention can't hear rule the day.

That is not the point of this forum... science should very much be involved.

I think this is an opportunity to hammer out a set of guidlines that can help us sort the tweaky things that have some validity from those that are imaginary... to potentially provide a framework upon which some technical and.or statistical testing can be applied.

And to discuss pie in the sky stuff that is way out there without continually defending against those that post that it is just not possible.

A parallel discussion is taking place amounst the moderators.

The one wintermute mentioned is a good start IMO:
1/ there are things we haven't yet figured out how to measure

And i'll suggest this one:
2/ this forum requires a "suspension of disbelief", the attitude of "what if this actually does work"

dave
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2007
OK Dave

I will suspend disbelief, at least temporarily.

Truce?:cloud9:OK?:cloud9:
Keith please start this discussion in a new post and I promise to look and not comment.

Dave, if possible we may need this forum split into dual sections, tweaks we know work well ( what I thought the forum was for ) and tweaks that are more esoteric and less practical for most of us
 
The idea that one must assume a certain point of view to be able to post in a given forum is rather Orwellian and Audio Asylum-ish. One can see the results of this philosophy by looking at a couple of forums - Cable Asylum at Audio Asylum, and "The Lab" at Audio Circle. For the former, the moderator removes all posts that, in effect, place the burden of proof of a claim on the claimant. It is a so-called "DBT-free zone". Or maybe you could call it a "Tooth Fairy denial-free zone", or a "Santa Claus denial-free zone".

The case of "The Lab" at Audio Circle is also interesting. The former moderator duplicated the "DBT-free zone" policy of Cable Asylum, claiming among other things that people just didn't know enough about the protocol to be able to discuss it intelligently. Now this person is no longer the moderator of that forum, but sells (or sold the last I checked) $500 power cords.

One could argue that DIY is the antithesis of the high-end, a rebellion that says a competent engineer or other enthusiast who loves the hobby can do better than the high-end poseurs. This means a message, that much of the information provided by the high-end audio industry is rubbish. That leads to the issue of misinformation, which is one that means a lot to me and others concerned with the facts as we know them. It takes almost no effort or time to fabricate some completely bogus theory of electronics or acoustics, but lots of time to debunk it. The result is perpetually increasing bull****. It is a battle that cannot be won for those who try to put forth the mundane things such as Physics, Engineering and Mathematics. Any forum that attempts to eliminate the burden of proof from the claimant can become a playground for those who stand to profit from such a view. And there are more such folks than you can shake a stick at.

The motivation for "sanctuary"- type forums is provided by subjectivists who portray themselves as victims of bullies that seek to have them justify their positions. The proposed solution is to have a forum where people are only free to express a point of view that agrees with theirs. So these "victims" seek to censor opposing viewpoints - hardly the kind of behavior one would expect of a victim, is it? We've already seen one of these "victims" express their views in a post that has unfortunately been deleted. This person used to run a Hi-Fi shop and was angry that people thought cables made no difference. Everyone knows that cables have the highest markup of any audio items. Objectivists cost him profits, so that makes him a victim. Tough ****!

And is there a shortage of "sanctuary" - type forums out there? No! There is Cable Asylum, Tweaks/DIY and Isolation Ward at Audio Asylum. "The Lab" at Audio Circle is a "DBT-free zone". These are all forums dominated by people who don't question their own judgment or that of others. DIYaudio has, in its better moments, been a place where people who have a deep understanding of technical issues can converse and exchange ideas. By contrast, the "sanctuary" people are those who have no understanding of the existing theory, yet are full of contempt of it, because it often contradicts their preconceived ideas.

I think the "Tweaker's Sanctuary" forum should be removed. It's already been shown to be a source of problems, and you can bet your boots it will be a source of many more.
 
Just another Moderator
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andy_c I think the real problem comes about because of stuborness and pig headedness (on both sides) A complete unwillingness to budge because each person KNOWS that they are right. This is IMO the real reason for problems in this type of forum, not the subject matter.

I also believe that there are those who really enjoy making others get worked up to the point that their posts degenerate to slinging matches. Any subject that is controvercial is a good candiate for those who wish to start such degenerative threads. How do you know the person making a particular claim even believes it, it could be just that they wan't to start an argument... This can happen in any of the various forums!

Yes there are always snake oil sales people and people willing to buy their wares, this is a fact of life, there will also it seems also be people who want to save the masses from making expensive mistakes by exposing the truth... My take on it is that if people are willing to spend the money on some of the more esoteric products, then that is their business, if they think that it got them something then what harm is there, if they can't tell the difference they have learnt a valuable (and probably expensive) lesson.

Not everthing in the world is black and white, there are many shades of grey and every individual is accountable and responsible for their own choices/actions ;)

Tony.
 
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