That's generally correct. I gave a more thorough explanation of the situation over on the audiosciencereview forum -
HDMI Audio to USB Conversion? | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
and
HDMI Audio to USB Conversion? | Page 3 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
If you are referring to the 3 boards that euro21 mentioned in post #6, then the answer is yes ... but only by installing them with skilled internal modification to the SACD player. Those are I2S-LVDS transmitter/receiver boards.
If you really want to extract DSD-I2S from an SACD player without modification to the SACD player, there is one particular external adapter board which will do the job -
DMI/MHL Input /Digital Audio I2S Coaxial Fiber HDMI to I2S/IIS HDMI OVER I2S 614823502759 | eBay
Apparently this board fully extracts "DSD-over-HDMI", as confirmed by forum member "veneet" on the PS Audio forum -
Getting Oppo DSD Output to the Direct Stream Dac - DACs - PS Audio
Dear all,
sorry if I have a specific question on this issue.
I have a Sony XA5400ES SACD player, that was one of the first SACD player able to output the DSD stream, even if via the HDMI port using the proprietary HATS protocol, that was used only by few Sony Receivers (Customer Community).
I was told that this HATS protocol via HDMI was basically a I2S protocol, so I tried to intercept the DSD streaming using a HDMI to IIS I2S Separate Extract Audio board (DSD-over-HDMI box) like this one: HDMI/MHL to IIS I2S HDMI IIS I2S Separate Extract Audio I2S/DSD/Optical/Coaxial | eBay
In particular my configuration is like this:
Sony XA5400ES -> HDMI digital output -> HDMI input of DSD-over-HDMI box -> S-PDIF output of the DSD-over-HDMI box -> S-PDIF input of my Allnic D5000 DAC (able to read DSD over PCM streaming).
When I read normal RedBook CD everything works fine (the Redbook streaming via HDMI and DSD-over-HDMI box), but when I switch to the SACD layer I have no output signal at the analogue output of the Allnic DAC.
I'm not sure if the problem is the DSD-over-HDMI box not able to understand the Sony HATS protocol or the Allnic DAC not able to read the DoP signal. Is there a way to check if there is a valid I2S signal in the SPDIF output of the DSD-over-HDMI box using only a normal oscilloscope?
My final question is: was anyone able to read DSD streaming output of a Sony XA5400ES (via HDMI and HATS protocol)?
If so, was the DSD-over-HDMI box useful to do it?
Reading here: Best DAC for SONY SCD XA5400es | Audiogon Discussion Forum
it seems that the Bryston DAC - BDA-3 should be able to read the HDMI DSD output of the XA5400ES, but I don't want to change my very good DAC!
Many thanks for nay help!
Tino
sorry if I have a specific question on this issue.
I have a Sony XA5400ES SACD player, that was one of the first SACD player able to output the DSD stream, even if via the HDMI port using the proprietary HATS protocol, that was used only by few Sony Receivers (Customer Community).
I was told that this HATS protocol via HDMI was basically a I2S protocol, so I tried to intercept the DSD streaming using a HDMI to IIS I2S Separate Extract Audio board (DSD-over-HDMI box) like this one: HDMI/MHL to IIS I2S HDMI IIS I2S Separate Extract Audio I2S/DSD/Optical/Coaxial | eBay
In particular my configuration is like this:
Sony XA5400ES -> HDMI digital output -> HDMI input of DSD-over-HDMI box -> S-PDIF output of the DSD-over-HDMI box -> S-PDIF input of my Allnic D5000 DAC (able to read DSD over PCM streaming).
When I read normal RedBook CD everything works fine (the Redbook streaming via HDMI and DSD-over-HDMI box), but when I switch to the SACD layer I have no output signal at the analogue output of the Allnic DAC.
I'm not sure if the problem is the DSD-over-HDMI box not able to understand the Sony HATS protocol or the Allnic DAC not able to read the DoP signal. Is there a way to check if there is a valid I2S signal in the SPDIF output of the DSD-over-HDMI box using only a normal oscilloscope?
My final question is: was anyone able to read DSD streaming output of a Sony XA5400ES (via HDMI and HATS protocol)?
If so, was the DSD-over-HDMI box useful to do it?
Reading here: Best DAC for SONY SCD XA5400es | Audiogon Discussion Forum
it seems that the Bryston DAC - BDA-3 should be able to read the HDMI DSD output of the XA5400ES, but I don't want to change my very good DAC!
Many thanks for nay help!
Tino
Tino_diy, I just saw your post now.
I just had a look at the Allnic D-5000DHT manual and I see this on page 3
So regardless of the intermediate signal conversion to/from s/pdif, you have a mismatch of signals; true DSD from the Sony versus DoP input for the Allnic.
It's possible to convert a DSD I2S signal to DoP - and I would think some specialist electronics designer should be able to put together a circuit board for $50 or so to do this job - but I can't find one ... all I can find to do the job is this $1000 device -
Stereo Magazine: External Conversion of SACD Signals
Wow, that's a lot of money just to make your SACD player talk to your DAC!
At this point, you might consider the alternative approach of ripping your SACD's to .dsf files, then set up a computer - ideally a Raspberry Pi - to play back your DSD music collection from computer device, rather than optical disc player.
I just had a look at the Allnic D-5000DHT manual and I see this on page 3
I think that's your problem, because the DSD-over-HDMI signal from your Sony XA5400ES (once decoded by your HDMI extractor) is true DSD I2S, not DoP I2S. And I don't think the Sony can be configured to output DoP - the DSD-over-HDMI standard was not designed to accommodate DoP.
So regardless of the intermediate signal conversion to/from s/pdif, you have a mismatch of signals; true DSD from the Sony versus DoP input for the Allnic.
It's possible to convert a DSD I2S signal to DoP - and I would think some specialist electronics designer should be able to put together a circuit board for $50 or so to do this job - but I can't find one ... all I can find to do the job is this $1000 device -
Stereo Magazine: External Conversion of SACD Signals
Wow, that's a lot of money just to make your SACD player talk to your DAC!
At this point, you might consider the alternative approach of ripping your SACD's to .dsf files, then set up a computer - ideally a Raspberry Pi - to play back your DSD music collection from computer device, rather than optical disc player.
Dear linuxfan,
thanks for your answer, I'll take It as a xmas gift!
To check if you are right I should find a dac able to read pure dsd and test if It works with my Sony xa54000es + dsd-over-hdmi box.
Thanks for your answer.
Happy new year!
Tino
thanks for your answer, I'll take It as a xmas gift!
To check if you are right I should find a dac able to read pure dsd and test if It works with my Sony xa54000es + dsd-over-hdmi box.
Thanks for your answer.
Happy new year!
Tino
The difference between raw DSD and DoP is that DoP has a header byte attached to each group of sixteen data bits and has left and right pushed through the same data line, see https://dsd-guide.com/sites/default/files/white-papers/DoP_openStandard_1v1.pdf and https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/BreakoutBoards/I2SBUS.pdf
A bunch of shift registers, a few multiplexers, a PLL or FLL to multiply the clock and some glue logic should be enough to do the conversion, and most if not all of it could be implemented in a programmable logic chip, but it is too complicated to just draw up an untested schematic and hope that it works.
A bunch of shift registers, a few multiplexers, a PLL or FLL to multiply the clock and some glue logic should be enough to do the conversion, and most if not all of it could be implemented in a programmable logic chip, but it is too complicated to just draw up an untested schematic and hope that it works.
Rumour has it that this device Mini 2X1 4K Hdmi Switch Audio Extractor Met Arc & Optische Toslink Hdmi 2.0 Schakelaar 4K 60Hz Hdmi Switcher Afstandsbediening Voor Apple Tv PS4|HDMI Kabels| - AliExpress can convert HDMI to S/PDIF and supports DoP. No I2S, though.
Yes - and preferably test via direct I2S input - because although DSD via s/pdif is technically feasible, this is quite rare and I'm not confident that your HDMI extractor fully supports this.
So you need a DAC with direct I2S input - the pioneers of this type of device were PS Audio and Empirical Audio, but if you don't have $10,000 or so, several relatively affordable DAC's from Topping also have direct I2S input - the DX7 Pro, D70(s), and D90(MQA). Or if you can get your hands on one, the very new Gustard X16.
You can functionally check a raw DSD output with an RC low-pass filter at 20 kHz or so, for example 820 ohm and 10 nF or 2.2 kohm and 3.9 nF. Connect the DSD output to the filter, AC couple the filter's output to an amplifier with volume control using a coupling capacitor of a few microfarads, make sure not to turn up the volume too high and check if you have sound. The reason for not turning up the volume too high is that at high volumes, the remaining ultrasonic quantization noise might damage your tweeters or your amplifier.
Dear all, thank you very much for your help!
@Marcel When I'll find the time I'll check the low-pass filter at 20khz, but do you mean at the output of the dsd-over-hdmi box? If so, on the spdif output or on the i2s 3 pin out connector?
@Linuxfan When we will be able to move I can ask to a friend Who has a Gustard U16, that should read dsd native. Btw we already tested It as usb-to-spdif converter and It really works very well (Better than entering directly in the input of the USB dac input).
Happy new year!
Tino
@Marcel When I'll find the time I'll check the low-pass filter at 20khz, but do you mean at the output of the dsd-over-hdmi box? If so, on the spdif output or on the i2s 3 pin out connector?
@Linuxfan When we will be able to move I can ask to a friend Who has a Gustard U16, that should read dsd native. Btw we already tested It as usb-to-spdif converter and It really works very well (Better than entering directly in the input of the USB dac input).
Happy new year!
Tino
Hi Tino,
I mean the I2S. Does it really have only three terminals? I would expect at least a bit clock, a word clock, a serial data line and a ground connection, and possibly status lines like mute and dsd_on.
Anyway, when an I2S interface is reconfigured as a raw DSD interface, usually the bit clock remains the bit clock, the data of one channel are sent to the serial data line and the data of the other channel are put on the word clock line. With an interface like that, a 2.2 kohm-3.9 nF low-pass filter suffices to convert the data from the serial data line or the word clock line into analogue audio (with mediocre quality and lots of ultrasonic quantization noise, but good enough to check if it works).
Happy 2021 to you too!
Marcel
Edit: I just checked the photo you linked to and it has ground, D_ON and MCLK connections, besides the I2S bit and word clock lines and serial data line. D_ON is presumably a DSD_ON signal that indicates that the interface has switched from I2S to raw DSD. MCLK is the master clock, some DACs like to receive one. DATA and LRCK are the serial data and word clock lines that presumably carry the raw DSD data in raw DSD mode.
I mean the I2S. Does it really have only three terminals? I would expect at least a bit clock, a word clock, a serial data line and a ground connection, and possibly status lines like mute and dsd_on.
Anyway, when an I2S interface is reconfigured as a raw DSD interface, usually the bit clock remains the bit clock, the data of one channel are sent to the serial data line and the data of the other channel are put on the word clock line. With an interface like that, a 2.2 kohm-3.9 nF low-pass filter suffices to convert the data from the serial data line or the word clock line into analogue audio (with mediocre quality and lots of ultrasonic quantization noise, but good enough to check if it works).
Happy 2021 to you too!
Marcel
Edit: I just checked the photo you linked to and it has ground, D_ON and MCLK connections, besides the I2S bit and word clock lines and serial data line. D_ON is presumably a DSD_ON signal that indicates that the interface has switched from I2S to raw DSD. MCLK is the master clock, some DACs like to receive one. DATA and LRCK are the serial data and word clock lines that presumably carry the raw DSD data in raw DSD mode.
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It's important that you check LRCK, because DATA might also give recognizable audio when it is DoP. When you low-pass filter a DoP data signal, left and right will be mixed to mono and the signal-to-noise ratio will be awful, but still you might recognize the signal.
Yes, good idea.
IMO a well implemented USB interface should beat a s/pdif interface every time. So unfortunately that indicates to me that your Allnic DAC's USB interface is sub-optimal!
Yes, happy new year. Italy is a wonderful country, I hope it pulls through the Coronavirus situation in 2021.
Thanks Marcel!
I inteded to write 6 but don't know how I wrote 3!
Sorry for my mistake.
So you suggest to check DATA and LRCK outputs with a Los pass filter? I Need Only to find some time and will let you know.
Best!
Tino
I inteded to write 6 but don't know how I wrote 3!
Sorry for my mistake.
So you suggest to check DATA and LRCK outputs with a Los pass filter? I Need Only to find some time and will let you know.
Best!
Tino
@linuxfan The dac tested were not Only the allnic but Also others hiend. The best sound was using a dedicated Berkeley Alpha usb2spdif converter (expensive and hard to find), followed by the gustard u16.
Both much better than entering in the USB dac input (for different dacs).
That Is what we found, I would not to discuss more than that this out of topic issue, so happy new year!
Both much better than entering in the USB dac input (for different dacs).
That Is what we found, I would not to discuss more than that this out of topic issue, so happy new year!
Hi guys, sorry to resurrect this AGAIN, but i have this need except for a different application.
I have an Onkyo AVR (RZ-820) that does a great job with connectivity, movies, network streaming, Tidal, etc but leaves a bit to be desired on the room correction/dsp front.
I’d like to add an external DIY box with a DSP (ADA1452/62 or similar), dac and a number of monoblock amps to drive my main speakers for music listening, while keeping the receiver setup for tv and movies.
I want to try my hand at building an amp based on the boards that others have so carefully designed on the forums while using my existing hardware as a digital source. Essentially just use the onkyo as an overblown network streamer box (because i have it and already like the workflow using it)
However this receiver doesn’t have any traditional digital outputs, but it does have an HDMI to Zone 2 that can be used to output the digital audio/video.
Which do you think is the lesser evil:
1) use one of the myriad of HDMI audio extractors to get I2S from and pass that to the DSP and down the signal path... (with whatever jitter is introduced being the downside)
2) Use 2 channels of the analog preamp output (single ended, 1V) from the Onkyo and then use the A/D function of the DSP to redigitize.... the Onkyo has a nice DAC (AK4458) at least.
3) ????
I’m thinking that the combination of the 1V preout with redigitization is worse (it just FEELS wrong to have an extra D/A A/D in there.
What do you think?
I have an Onkyo AVR (RZ-820) that does a great job with connectivity, movies, network streaming, Tidal, etc but leaves a bit to be desired on the room correction/dsp front.
I’d like to add an external DIY box with a DSP (ADA1452/62 or similar), dac and a number of monoblock amps to drive my main speakers for music listening, while keeping the receiver setup for tv and movies.
I want to try my hand at building an amp based on the boards that others have so carefully designed on the forums while using my existing hardware as a digital source. Essentially just use the onkyo as an overblown network streamer box (because i have it and already like the workflow using it)
However this receiver doesn’t have any traditional digital outputs, but it does have an HDMI to Zone 2 that can be used to output the digital audio/video.
Which do you think is the lesser evil:
1) use one of the myriad of HDMI audio extractors to get I2S from and pass that to the DSP and down the signal path... (with whatever jitter is introduced being the downside)
2) Use 2 channels of the analog preamp output (single ended, 1V) from the Onkyo and then use the A/D function of the DSP to redigitize.... the Onkyo has a nice DAC (AK4458) at least.
3) ????
I’m thinking that the combination of the 1V preout with redigitization is worse (it just FEELS wrong to have an extra D/A A/D in there.
What do you think?
Hi UCrazyKid did you ever solve this? I recently purchased a Topping D90SE which has the I2S input which from I read had the ability to input the highest data rates/resolution. I also am looking for an alternative to the onboard DAC on both my Oppo 103 and my Panasonic UB9000 for .dsf playback and SACD Playback on the OPPO 103.
I didn’t have any luck but many others have. I think the problem is with the box received from China. I was not up to trying to return it. YMMV
It's a long time since this was written, but I thought I'd add my findings. There are two models listed there - the ZY-HS121 and the ZY-AV2E. I tested the ZY-HS121 and couldn't get DoP over the coaxial output. This device explicitly states that it extracts DSD audio from HDMI and outputs it as DoP64 over coaxial and has been mentioned elsewhere as a solution, but given the coaxial output on my Pioneer BDP-150 gives me 88.2/24 PCM when it plays SACDs, the improvement would be negligible and I'd be paying the $100+ essentially just for knowing things are being done the properly right way.