Hi! Long time reader, first time poster! To say I'm obsessed with audio is a understatement, even wrote my senior theseus on audio systems in high school 21 years ago. I will do my best to be short as I'm a bit of a story teller. Pieced together a nice used system over the years, paradigm 800f fronts, 500c center, surround 1 for years, used SR7007, and a new to me mint UD7004, and a fluance rt-81 that was a christmas present 2 years ago. The fiance has been getting upset on all these purchases the last 3 years (but doesnt complain when we watch a movie : ) ) Anywho, bought first house this year, and mom is living in inlaw apartment, and we built a platform to raise the rear couch in the entertainment roomfor theater seating, next were building a album rack. It was nice doing a project with her, and she remembered how much she loved doing wood projects with her father (she's 70 years young). I want to start building projects with her so I have memories of things we built together. I said to myself I'm kinda handy (15 years auto repair specializing in electrical diagnostics) and industrial forklift repair (90% electric) so can read a schematic pretty decent. I want to start in on the DIY aspects. I believe a good portion of the $ in audio is the finish and exotic woods, markup, advertising, etc. I explained to the fiance I will make things myself over time, involve my mom as a project, and the time it takes to build will help slow the purchase processes lol. So, going to start simple with a DIY tube headphone amp, and eventually a crites speaker kit as I've always dreamed of what a klipsch sounds like.....I know this isn't the section for that, but what I'm curious about, is can me and my mother build a good turn table on a budget of $500-1,000? She bought me the rt-81 2 years ago as my intro to vinyl, and well, I'm curious what all the hubbub is about with high end tables? Love the looks of some of the ones on here! But my pole barn is limited to tools (we dont have a CNC machine lol) we have basic woodworking tools, a friend who's gotta good TIG welder, full mechanics tools, and taps n dies. The fluance I know isn't designed for the long haul, and am completely fascinated on how spinning a record at a certain speed and dragging a precision diamond across it produces something beautiful, magical even. I'm also huge into rc cars, and was thinking I could use a nice DC rebuildable brushed low wind motor, gear it down with R/C car gears, could even use a battery to power it (I'm sure there's somewhere high end that believes a wall plug adds distortion) and a linear tracking tonearm, grab a solid aluminum platter off of Ebay, a pot to adjust rpm speed, maybe a rpm indicator, voltage readout, etc..... or, should I just do a simple used parts from ebay and piece together a simple turntable? Like a rega acrylic platter, buy a tone arm, and some kind of motor? What do I do for a bearing? Been looking like crazy and seems all the places that made them to supply for DIY builders dont make them anymore? Well, found one.......for $800.....thats almost my entire budget. I've done a lot of reading on here, and seems a lot of it is from 10yrs ago, and lots of things have changed, and links dont work as businesses close. again, sorry I'm long winded, but I'm excited to be here, and really want to learn as much as i can from as many people as i can! Am I dreaming we can build a turntable that would smoke the fluance? Again, I'm here to learn, and look forward to your lessons.
I'd expect a brushed motor with gears would be too noisy for turntable duty.
Look at the bldc motor design in the following threads for possibly the ultimate in silent motors -
3 Phase Class D amp for DIY BLDC motor Drive
DIY 4 Phase Sinewave Generator for Turntable Motor Drive
For a tonearm, look at Uni-pivot or WTL designs for starters; you can always add a new arm later.
A linear arm could be a lifetimes project on its own and you would need a working arm as a benchmark.
Bearings & platter - use a donor table or carry on searching.
See -
The Analog Dept. for ideas - I like the 'Bushman' for its simplicity & non-square looks.
Look at the bldc motor design in the following threads for possibly the ultimate in silent motors -
3 Phase Class D amp for DIY BLDC motor Drive
DIY 4 Phase Sinewave Generator for Turntable Motor Drive
For a tonearm, look at Uni-pivot or WTL designs for starters; you can always add a new arm later.
A linear arm could be a lifetimes project on its own and you would need a working arm as a benchmark.
Bearings & platter - use a donor table or carry on searching.
See -
The Analog Dept. for ideas - I like the 'Bushman' for its simplicity & non-square looks.
Yup, holy crap......
I guess the idea of building a $10,000 VPI turntable for $1k is not realistic lol. I read the time machine article from that link you posted (came across that page before when I was looking for bearing info) I'm beginning to see a picture of 20 scientists doing research on the ideal amount of wood growth rings per square inch to produce the perfect resonance to accommodate the tolerance of a certain tonearm. I'm sure what I was thinking of building would have been less VPI and more the DIY players that come up on google made out of cardboard. As far as that motor controller, way, way over my head......well, for now. Like I said I'm thinking my best way to dip my toes in is with a DIY headphone tube amp kit. R/C cars have DC and AC motors, but definitely have never built a electronic speed control (ESC) for one. I will keep reading and researching as much as possible, for I'm definitely a rookie. Something also tells me if I go to do a diy table, even buying a tone arm, I'm going to have to learn trigonometry to do it right. But, like I said, this will slow me down on purchases, and how this looks.......30 yes lol.
Once you have heard a really good analog rig on a well setup system you will immediately know. You also don't need to drop a small fortune if you have good DIY skills.
DIYing a TT without a lathe and milling machine you will struggle to get highend results. Better to start with a good TT base and modify it. There are plenty of TT's out there than can be made into giant kills for reasonable money.
I have an SP10mk2 with DIY linear arm and complete DIY system and it is amazing. Has taken me 10years to build to where it is now.
Good TT bases to start with
Technics SP10mk2 or SL1200 - both reasonably priced and SL1200 has a plethora of upgrades.
Most higher end Jap direct Drives of the 1970-80's Denon, Pioneer,Yamaha etc
Lenco or Garrad (getting expensive and old ones are hard to find)
I guess that's where ignorance is bliss for me and my wallet! Hahaha. My turntable is the only one I've heard, well, except mom playing a star wars christmas on dad's fisher system when I was 6 around 1987, but i honestly dont remember how well it sounded. Aleays been into car audio (no, not 6 15" subs kinda systems) but realized something a few years ago, in high end audio a lot of what you pay for is the DAC.....there isn't one for records, and you can have a completely analog system! I still think it's cool to this day and have plans for a all analog klipsch system in the basement a ways down the road. I love the way my fluance sounds, and plan on doing my first cart upgrade to a vm95ml (seams to be what all the votes say) in January. But I know it's a intro player, and while moms around, would like to build something for the long haul. Maybe keep the fluance for used records and upstairs, and fill the basement with DIY. I'm only 39, so will be around for a few years. I notice a not so nice hiss on Ssss on a few records and some mushy instruments on my Motown record, but might be the pressing. Just got my first 2 high end records in the mail, the sound of female vocals (analog recorded and cut from master tapes in 180gr) and Diana Krall, just started to fall in love with her over the last few weeks, in 45rpm 180gr, and wow, these sound amazing! So, now I'm curious......what will X sound like? Removing the onboard phono amp? A better cartridge? Tubes?......damn, I really do try to keep these responses short! Sorry!
You mentioned a lot of DD tables, is there a reason for this? There seems to be a plethora of garrad tables on Ebay, is there a particular one? I see mostly $50-200 with the occasional $2k in the mix. Is marantz a option? I'm sure marantz is looked down upon, but love my 2 pieces, and like to have matching things. Thinking I'll have to research as I have no clue what the difference is between the 6100,200 and 300.
Just found a sota gold platter, looks like with bearings for $120 on ebay, would that be a good start? Looks like for a motor there's some Chinese brushless standalone motor with adjustable speed and switch for 45/33 1/3 for $350 I could eventually get......there's also some external drive motors for I think a music hall 9.3? For 350, but dont think it has any type of controller.
Start with a good direct drive motor unit, it gives you the bearing and platter, perfect speed control if you go with quartz locked and takes a lot of the head scratching and problems out of the picture. Spend the time building a nice wood plinth.
I'm partial to the high end JVC/Victor drive motors starting with the TT 71 unit and going up. The higher end Denon drive units are popular to.
Also use an oversized arm board to mount the tonearm so you can experiment with different arms down the road.
There is a ton to read about just on plinth design and damping.
BillWojo
I'm partial to the high end JVC/Victor drive motors starting with the TT 71 unit and going up. The higher end Denon drive units are popular to.
Also use an oversized arm board to mount the tonearm so you can experiment with different arms down the road.
There is a ton to read about just on plinth design and damping.
BillWojo
>You mentioned a lot of DD tables, is there a reason for this?
Maybe time for a breather; get to know a little about the history and pedigree of TTs before dashing into an expensive ebay purchase - and learn the hard way.
I know next to nothing on the subject. Roughly, the drive system went from wind-up, to synchronous electric motor with idler wheels, to belt drive, to direct drive. You may note some of the highest end units goes back to the belt, eschewing the DD for some reason. I have no idea why...these units appear like the motor is a component, the platter is a separate component, the arm is a component - and the frame that holds each in place is a component. Perhaps that's a good way to look at it?
Maybe time for a breather; get to know a little about the history and pedigree of TTs before dashing into an expensive ebay purchase - and learn the hard way.
I know next to nothing on the subject. Roughly, the drive system went from wind-up, to synchronous electric motor with idler wheels, to belt drive, to direct drive. You may note some of the highest end units goes back to the belt, eschewing the DD for some reason. I have no idea why...these units appear like the motor is a component, the platter is a separate component, the arm is a component - and the frame that holds each in place is a component. Perhaps that's a good way to look at it?
There are a couple good suggestions above. I used to be a bench tech for Marantz and their consumer TT's were average quality. BUT if you were to buy any of the DD's and move the motor and electronics into a better plinth with a good arm I'm sure it would perform far better.
Yeah.......after a lot of reading........seams marantz just kinda made a table for the sake of making a table.......
Not really making a good table. Though I do love the looks of their new table, at $1500 and not available in black......have to pass!
Hahaha! Thanks guys for keeping my head on straight. I just saw the sota and VPI platter (that ones $450) last night and get excited...... I guess the only thing I'm worried about with direct drive is the whole how long will the motor last? Also the outboard belt motors look so amazing.......but, if it sounds like yit, what's the point?
Holy crap is the denon DP-500M a sexy looking unit! Think I'm going to have to go with a DP-1000 -6000. It looks perfect, on/speed/off switch, direct drive, quartz locked, all in one with plug. That is definitely a DIY beginners dream right there! Now I'm going to be researching what the difference is between those and if any of them are A/C motor for longevity. I also see i need to be careful as a dp1000 platter parts is only $30 less than an entire table.........the hunt is on..........
Holy crap! you've gotta ton of $$$ for a spmk2! $5k on ebay and the power supply is pretty expensive too! And that's reasonably priced? Or is this like my marantz dvd player? Not to many of the newer ones around so people are asking 4x the amount of what they were 4 or 5 years ago? There's one with a 120v power supply (learned all about that 100v crap lol) I'll keep a eye on. I've always seen so many people rant about technics DD tables, and always thought, why dont high end manufacturers use them. Still studying.......
Have you joined Vinyl Engine forum yet? They have a database that covers just about every turntable, tonearm and cartridge ever made.
When it comes to specs like Wow and Flutter or Speed, the direct drive tables are way better than anything else out there. Any of the higher end Japanese DD tables will have very respectable specs, you can't go wrong.
BillWojo
When it comes to specs like Wow and Flutter or Speed, the direct drive tables are way better than anything else out there. Any of the higher end Japanese DD tables will have very respectable specs, you can't go wrong.
BillWojo
Yes, joined a month ago and asked about what cart to upgrade to for my RT-81, seems like good people there too. I like the idea of direct drive, just like the looks of the massive 3" thick polished platters or acrylic on external belt drive. But, performance and $ trumps looks to some degree. Honestly not too big on the looks of the denon 1k-6k, and if its 120v, its in a mint TT that id hate to pay top $ for to rip apart, otherwise its 100v Japan. Other DD TT's are commonly full auto with a lot of complexity. Would take it all out if possible and have a cue lever on the tonearm I select, and a mechanical lift arm for end of play that stands alone on the plater (pretty coll setup and simple=longevity) the other thing with DD is the hideous platters, the tone ring, but maybe I can make a nice wooden ring to cover all of it except a port for the light.....each TT im finding im checking and researching durability as I want to get something long term, again, that I can build with my mother, and don't want to go too cheap. Those JVC tables mentioned like the TT71 are perfect as they are, and would rather buy one as it is as they're a work of art. (As well as a lot of $) I like the idea of technics dd and actually thought if they're so good why don't I make a TT using their drive system. But looking at the plinth, man, there's a lot going on in there.......
IMHO stay away from direct drive. Folks point to all kinds of "flaws" with DD - cogging, torque pulsing, longevity of the feedback loop electronics, etc. But to me the main advantage of belt drive is that you can easily suspend the tone arm and platter together separately from the motor and base. This gets the vibration of the motor, and more importantly, the room off the record (and ultimately the needle).
I had a very nice Luxman PD272 (still have it, actually, as one of my kids wants it) DD rig. It sounded OK. I built a very substantial isolated base for it. It sounded better. Mounted the base on the wall such that it was isolated from the floor. I sounded even better. That's when I figured out how important isolation was. I then rebuilt an AR table (actually it was more like I cannibalized an AR table) replacing the motor, plinth, and arm (also some minor parts) which sounded much better than my best incarnation of the Luxman. Bear in mind We're talking about the same cartridge, same electronics, same speakers, in the same room.
But don't take my word for it - look at most of the best reviewed tables (including the Linn Sondek LP12). They're all belt drive with platter and tonearm suspension.
After my AR experiment I went all in and built a table from scratch. Belt drive with the motor in a separate enclosure located about a foot away from the platter which sits on a shelf separate from the main TT. An unenclosed polycarbonate plinth. Acrylic platter suspended with the tonearm (A Rega 300 I think). I think I'm done with TT building.
I would recommend buying a "donor" table or two. You can usually find them cheap on Craigslist. Find one with a decent arm and dead electronics or seized bearing and another that has platter/tonearm suspension but mangled plinth or bad motor. You can usually find stuff like that for under $50. Cannibalize the suspension and bearing from one table and the arm from another. Build a open plinth (really just a slab of wood with some holes for the bearing and tonearm) from a piece of heavy hardwood (Purpleheart would be pretty) or Corian. You can get away with an Aluminum platter, but I prefer something more inert. You can get someone to fabricate one from Corian for not too much $. You can even make one yourself with MDF if you're handy. Find a decent motor and build a separate enclosure for it to mount away from the table (you can weight the motor enclosure with Lead shot or sand to keep it from moving and sticky rubber on the bottom helps too). You might need to find a machinist to custom build you a shaft/idler to match the motor RPM to the platter diameter. Even if this cost $100 (which it shouldn't) it'll still be a bargain.
I had a very nice Luxman PD272 (still have it, actually, as one of my kids wants it) DD rig. It sounded OK. I built a very substantial isolated base for it. It sounded better. Mounted the base on the wall such that it was isolated from the floor. I sounded even better. That's when I figured out how important isolation was. I then rebuilt an AR table (actually it was more like I cannibalized an AR table) replacing the motor, plinth, and arm (also some minor parts) which sounded much better than my best incarnation of the Luxman. Bear in mind We're talking about the same cartridge, same electronics, same speakers, in the same room.
But don't take my word for it - look at most of the best reviewed tables (including the Linn Sondek LP12). They're all belt drive with platter and tonearm suspension.
After my AR experiment I went all in and built a table from scratch. Belt drive with the motor in a separate enclosure located about a foot away from the platter which sits on a shelf separate from the main TT. An unenclosed polycarbonate plinth. Acrylic platter suspended with the tonearm (A Rega 300 I think). I think I'm done with TT building.
I would recommend buying a "donor" table or two. You can usually find them cheap on Craigslist. Find one with a decent arm and dead electronics or seized bearing and another that has platter/tonearm suspension but mangled plinth or bad motor. You can usually find stuff like that for under $50. Cannibalize the suspension and bearing from one table and the arm from another. Build a open plinth (really just a slab of wood with some holes for the bearing and tonearm) from a piece of heavy hardwood (Purpleheart would be pretty) or Corian. You can get away with an Aluminum platter, but I prefer something more inert. You can get someone to fabricate one from Corian for not too much $. You can even make one yourself with MDF if you're handy. Find a decent motor and build a separate enclosure for it to mount away from the table (you can weight the motor enclosure with Lead shot or sand to keep it from moving and sticky rubber on the bottom helps too). You might need to find a machinist to custom build you a shaft/idler to match the motor RPM to the platter diameter. Even if this cost $100 (which it shouldn't) it'll still be a bargain.
There is a vpi platter and a really awesome beat up Rek O Kut? With motor and suspended table, it just looks cool being built in NYC back in the heyday before the city took a dive lol. I like history. As much as I value everything everyone has commented on, I just don't know about DD. I guess what im finding is anything thats good (in good condition, high quality, good build and specs) in my opinion is either.....well.......not beautiful, or is so nice, and like new, I wouldn't want to rip it apart and is like $800 and up. Anything that isn't in mint condition is full auto cheapy player. I understand about the mixing of $50 TT, and though a good idea, I'm looking for, well, a step up from my fluance, again, built to last as my mother will be helping me with this project over time, and like the record holder we'll be building over the next few months, will cherish for the rest of my life. It means more to me then just plopping down some cash and getting a turntable.
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