You can test what ever you like as this is your test and as this is the Internet, you will not make everyone happy with the testing methodThe only problem was for me that you only test 1 type of resistor where the sound actually goes through. And the reason is "carbon comp is the "usual" choice".
You can leave the whole B1 section untouched, but don't do it because it is the usual choice. Now you wrote it has the best sound for you so far, which is perfectly reasonable answer for me. But not for others. Internet is big. Everyone will tell what you do wrong. Remember, never give up, never surrender, it is your test
Hi Mr Wagner,
I get your points.
I decided going all carbons at the 470R position (gate stopper) because, in fact, they were recommended in the BOM. Didn't think that the non-inductive characteristic was the main reason (or was it ?) for using this type. That means that I am willing to try different non-inductives there. But since I made the mistake to think the 470R were in the audio signal while they are not, I will not put too much time and $$ on these.
I will probably use what I have already bought. Might try some more IF I can hear a difference. Like the Ayrton-Perry type suggested here by Rodeodave.
So far I have bought the followings 470R:
- Allen Bradley carbon comp 5% 1/2W
- Arcol Japan carbon comp 5% 1/2W
- Kamaya Japan carbon comp 5% 1/2W
- Kiwame Japan carbon film 1% 2W
- Takman Japan REX carbon film 2% 1/2W
- ??? Ayrton-Perry type ???
Now about the Vishay VAR Z-foil, it worked very well at the very beginning of the audio signal in my power amp. IMHO, very transparent and see-through. After a pleasant experience, normal I want to see how they are going to fare in the DCB1.... The Z-foil could end up NOT being a good fit on my DCB1. No problem then, I am fine with that. I know for certain that it is NOT the best resistor....
I just don't believe there is such thing as ''best component''. FOR ME, it's all about synergy. The appreciation of a component--for example here, a resistor-- depends on factors like : meaurements, placement in circuit/type of circuit, synergy with rest...and yes, subjectivity.
But IMHO if different people, with numerous different variables report similar characteristics about a component then, maybe; we have to start becoming a little curious and maybe start paying attention as to the possibility about a certain ''commonness'' of experiences. Call it ''sonic signature'' if you want.
Therefore, I am just one of those guies who will share his experiences. If it's anything worth. Good thing is that 2-3 other audiophiles will be part of the comparative listenning sessions. Some might even post here afterwards.
Now if all this sharing could interest or help others in any ways, good !! I'll be delighted. But obviously, in any case, your MMV.
Now, since I will not be putting too much $$ on the 470R, I will be trying different 220R resistors. So far I have the following 220Rs:
- Vishay VAR Z-foil
- Shinkoh Tantalum
- Takman REY metal film
- Rhopoint Minihoms (if I can get my hands on some...)
- ??? Ayrton-Perry type ??? Help !!!
Any suggestions ? Please go ahead. I could then try and report back.
Regards
Scorpion
Ho Rodeodave,
Any suggestions (brands/series) ?
So far I have found Ohmite Axiohms and some Vishay/Dale (but only 2 watters and up)...
Thanks
Regards
Scorpion
2 questions for you all
Since I will have 2 boards, one for trying/swapping components and the other one for final build, I have questions...
1) I had the idea to cut and solder little pieces (1/4'') of resistor legs on the ''test board''. I would solder them everywhere where I would need to do some swaps. At the other extermity of the legs, I thought about crimping very tiny brass sleeves and leave some space left in order to be able to easily ''slide/swap the various resistors into place''. That way, it would prevent me from soldering again and again and potentially damage the ''test board''...and make comparaisons very quick and easy.
What's your take on it ? Any other way to do it better/simplier ?
2) Since I would like to compare things within as little time as possible (in order to keep my ''audio memory'' as ''fresh'' as can be). I tought about building a device that would allow to burn in all the resistors at the same time. So say after, 500 hours of burn-in (all at once), I could swap and compare the effect of changing different ressitors in the 220R position, for example. It could be quick and easy.
Any idea how to best build a device with current going trough 10 different resistors sitting next to the other (in parralell)?
25 volts going trough them all at once seems good to me--but I have limited knowledge in that area, my bad-- in order to be around what's found on Salas' DCB1 (been told about 21V).
Thanks a lot in advance
Regards
Scorpion
Since I will have 2 boards, one for trying/swapping components and the other one for final build, I have questions...
1) I had the idea to cut and solder little pieces (1/4'') of resistor legs on the ''test board''. I would solder them everywhere where I would need to do some swaps. At the other extermity of the legs, I thought about crimping very tiny brass sleeves and leave some space left in order to be able to easily ''slide/swap the various resistors into place''. That way, it would prevent me from soldering again and again and potentially damage the ''test board''...and make comparaisons very quick and easy.
What's your take on it ? Any other way to do it better/simplier ?
2) Since I would like to compare things within as little time as possible (in order to keep my ''audio memory'' as ''fresh'' as can be). I tought about building a device that would allow to burn in all the resistors at the same time. So say after, 500 hours of burn-in (all at once), I could swap and compare the effect of changing different ressitors in the 220R position, for example. It could be quick and easy.
Any idea how to best build a device with current going trough 10 different resistors sitting next to the other (in parralell)?
25 volts going trough them all at once seems good to me--but I have limited knowledge in that area, my bad-- in order to be around what's found on Salas' DCB1 (been told about 21V).
Thanks a lot in advance
Regards
Scorpion
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It got very quiet in here, and I hope I wasn't a jerk. I am very much in favour of this experiment, and look forward to seeing the results. I guess it's clear that I think "burn in" of resistors is silly, but that's me. You guys can do what you want, because this is your experiment, and I don't think it is appropriate for me to start demanding you test the efficacy of "burn in" when you just want to test the sonic differences of resistors. I'll try to put a sock in it, and I look forward to seeing what you guys find!
I am very interested in the results of your testing. Do not let the naysayers prevent you from expressing subjective opinions. Some of us value such information, while others cannot abide anything less than laboratory standards for listening tests. They will relentlessly hound you and mock your efforts and results. Best to simply ignore them rather than fan the flames.
Select some music that has lots of variety (vocals, complex passages as well as single tones, preferably acoustic instruments), and that you won't mind listening to over and over and over. Use it for every test. It does not need to be, and might even be better if it isn't, "audiophile" quality. Don't focus on only a single aspect of the sound, but listen to its entirety.
Regarding your test methods: I like the test board idea, but 1/4" of wire might be too short for a lead, and you might melt the solder where such a short wire is connected to the board. Use a little longer lead, even 1/2" would be more stable. Do not use resistor leads for the pigtails; use the best fine gauge wire you can obtain, such as 24ga OCC solid copper.
I wouldn't worry about hours of break-in of resistors. I have found that most take only a few minutes to settle even with line level signals, and some of that might be due to making new connections, which also take a few minutes to settle. In other words, fast swapping of parts is not the best strategy. Listen to each candiate for an hour or more. If you can't tell the difference between parts after extensive careful listening, then the difference is not significant enough to worry about, and fast swaps will only confuse you. Some people maintain that resistors are directional. That adds another variable. You might try it yourself, but be sure to give a reversed part time to settle before deciding one orientation is better than the other. Again, fast swaps and snap decisions are not always accurate. A reversed part might sound different for only the first few minutes, if at all.
You have quite a few candidates, perhaps too many. Instead of attempting to select the ultimate resistor from the field of every type ever made, choose from among what is readily available and "reasonably" priced. Perhaps you should narrow the field with some preliminary testing, then select a few finalists for more extensive trials, including a listening panel of friends. I think you will find the greatest differences between different base materials, and between parts with vs without magnetic properties.
I have tested quite a few types of resistors in various circuits, and learned that a single part, especially a single type or brand of part used exclusively, can lend a distinctive sound. I believe that what contributes to a "house sound" of brands of commercial equipment is the prevalence of any particular brand of component used extensively or exclusively in their circuit. PRP resistors are nice, inexpensive alternatives to commercial grade metal films, but put 40 or so of them in a single circuit and it will sound like PRP resistors, which is not necessarily the best. The best strategy is probably a mixture of various types and brands, so your "serial" selection method (one position settled, then move on to the next) has merit.
You've got a lot on your plate. Take your time. Report here when you're ready. Don't get discouraged and wimp out halfway through. Enjoy the process.
Peace,
Tom E
Select some music that has lots of variety (vocals, complex passages as well as single tones, preferably acoustic instruments), and that you won't mind listening to over and over and over. Use it for every test. It does not need to be, and might even be better if it isn't, "audiophile" quality. Don't focus on only a single aspect of the sound, but listen to its entirety.
Regarding your test methods: I like the test board idea, but 1/4" of wire might be too short for a lead, and you might melt the solder where such a short wire is connected to the board. Use a little longer lead, even 1/2" would be more stable. Do not use resistor leads for the pigtails; use the best fine gauge wire you can obtain, such as 24ga OCC solid copper.
I wouldn't worry about hours of break-in of resistors. I have found that most take only a few minutes to settle even with line level signals, and some of that might be due to making new connections, which also take a few minutes to settle. In other words, fast swapping of parts is not the best strategy. Listen to each candiate for an hour or more. If you can't tell the difference between parts after extensive careful listening, then the difference is not significant enough to worry about, and fast swaps will only confuse you. Some people maintain that resistors are directional. That adds another variable. You might try it yourself, but be sure to give a reversed part time to settle before deciding one orientation is better than the other. Again, fast swaps and snap decisions are not always accurate. A reversed part might sound different for only the first few minutes, if at all.
You have quite a few candidates, perhaps too many. Instead of attempting to select the ultimate resistor from the field of every type ever made, choose from among what is readily available and "reasonably" priced. Perhaps you should narrow the field with some preliminary testing, then select a few finalists for more extensive trials, including a listening panel of friends. I think you will find the greatest differences between different base materials, and between parts with vs without magnetic properties.
I have tested quite a few types of resistors in various circuits, and learned that a single part, especially a single type or brand of part used exclusively, can lend a distinctive sound. I believe that what contributes to a "house sound" of brands of commercial equipment is the prevalence of any particular brand of component used extensively or exclusively in their circuit. PRP resistors are nice, inexpensive alternatives to commercial grade metal films, but put 40 or so of them in a single circuit and it will sound like PRP resistors, which is not necessarily the best. The best strategy is probably a mixture of various types and brands, so your "serial" selection method (one position settled, then move on to the next) has merit.
You've got a lot on your plate. Take your time. Report here when you're ready. Don't get discouraged and wimp out halfway through. Enjoy the process.
Peace,
Tom E
Hi Nezbleu,
Thanks for your answer.
In fact, I chose not to reply to your other post about the " burn-in" stuff because I respect your opinion/experiences and didn't want to start arguing about our different point of view on the matter.
So far, my numerous experiences with different components (wires, cables, crossovers, capacitors, resistors, solders) have all point out to a "settling in" of the sound. Sometimes significant, sometimes very subtle.
I do respect that YMMV but I just don't think sarcasm is necessary.
Maybe you could read the thread with "doubts"...but try to keep an open mind ? Who knows maybe you might learn a thing or two along the way from posters.
Isn't it the purpose of this site?
Respectfully
Scorpion
Hi AndrewT
And .....what about swapping between the same resistors ? New ones vs some with a lot of hours of music playing ?
Very easy and feasible. Could do an A-B-A test easily.
Regards
Scorpion
If they are not soldered in you are adding another variable - the quality of the connection.
Hi KatieandDad,
Yep, but they would then see all the same variable.
Then again, types of solder used would be another variable. So would be the tiny OFC copper wires....it's a Pandora box !!! But I need to start somewhere.
Regards
Scorpion
Hi again Madisonears,
You seem to be doing tests exactly how I do mines. In fact, I had planned to narrow down my choices as I select my preferred ones per positions and then give them some extra attention in order to get max synergy.
As far as the"house sound", my experience is exactly the same as yours. That's why I want to mix and match to fine-tune towards musicality as much as I'd be able to.
I am happy to acknowledge that I'll have "a lot of fun on my plate"...
Regards
Scorpion
I may have been pushy, for which I apologize, but I was not sarcastic. I asked an honest question: "What difference do you expect to hear from burn-in?". But in retrospect I don't think that discussion belongs in this thread.
I do think you are, so far, ignoring something very important: matching. Whatever sonic qualities a resistor's materials and construction may contribute are far less significant than its resistance value. You need to ensure that the resistors you compare have the same value, to at least 1%, or even better 0.1%. And since some resistor types (eg. Carbon comp) have very high temperature coefficient, you really want to be sure the resistors have the same value at operating temperature. Else you are just comparing resistance variations.
Scorpion,
You write very well in your second language. The more I read, the more eager I am to learn the results of your testing. Get going! We do seem to agree on a lot of testing procedures. Nez makes a good point about matching values. It seems you are thorough enough to have already thought of that. I expect 1% is adequate. I would not be at all concerned about TC, as that variable is part of the performance of a resistor.
I think you should solder all parts onto the pigtails. Takes only a few minutes, and the connection is secure and invariable from one test to the next. I expect solder would be less of a sonic factor than brass sleeves. I don't like sockets at all. Anything that changes the way these parts sound in the circuit between testing and final installation should be avoided. A small amount of fine gauge quality wire will mimic the trace of a PCB. Adding sleeves or sockets introduces an external element, however minor, that will not be present on the final installation. Maybe your initial trials could use crimped sleeves for ease of switching a lot of parts, then move to solder for the final evaluations among the few best candidates.
I wouldn't worry about directionality. If a differenece exists at all, I think it is so subtle that it can be ignored. I will be interested to learn if you discover something more.
Peace,
Tom E
You write very well in your second language. The more I read, the more eager I am to learn the results of your testing. Get going! We do seem to agree on a lot of testing procedures. Nez makes a good point about matching values. It seems you are thorough enough to have already thought of that. I expect 1% is adequate. I would not be at all concerned about TC, as that variable is part of the performance of a resistor.
I think you should solder all parts onto the pigtails. Takes only a few minutes, and the connection is secure and invariable from one test to the next. I expect solder would be less of a sonic factor than brass sleeves. I don't like sockets at all. Anything that changes the way these parts sound in the circuit between testing and final installation should be avoided. A small amount of fine gauge quality wire will mimic the trace of a PCB. Adding sleeves or sockets introduces an external element, however minor, that will not be present on the final installation. Maybe your initial trials could use crimped sleeves for ease of switching a lot of parts, then move to solder for the final evaluations among the few best candidates.
I wouldn't worry about directionality. If a differenece exists at all, I think it is so subtle that it can be ignored. I will be interested to learn if you discover something more.
Peace,
Tom E
Madisonears,
Our brains were probably cloned somewhere in time...
...during our own audiophile journey. So far, I see things exactly the way you see them. I had the same concerns regarding the use of sleeves in components in the audio signal. I know they will introduce a little something soundwise, that if at all possible, I would like to avoid/limit as much as I can.That's why I asked in this forum if there was another way of doing things in such a manner that impact on sound would be minimal. The crimped sleeves way is VERY user-friendly as far as swapping goes.
I had already decided to go the soldering way for the "final contestants" (my favorites) per position in order to get the closest pictures possible of final preferred sound.
As far as matching goes, most of the resistors already ordered are within 1% per manufacturers (some even less than that). Now, carbon comps are generally within 5% but Parts Connexion can match them more closely for small fees (1$ per) wich brings them within 1-2%. Acceptable to me. I will pay extra attention and measure them all again upon reception to make sure it's the case.
I do recognize it was a very good point brought by Nezbleu ...but, it had already been taken care off. Finally, for the temperature coefficient, I don't think it will really come into play in this test, at room temperature...but I could be wrong.
Regards
Scorpion
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