Hi all. I am new to speaker/xover design and not quite looking for the "perfect" balance....yet. But, what I could use is a little help from those who are experienced.
I have the following driver/tweeters and would like to pair them in the following manner.
Pair 1:
Dayton Audio RS75-4 3" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm
1/2" Mylar Dome Shielded Tweeter 8 Ohm
Pair 2:
HiVi B3N 3" Aluminum Driver Round Frame
Tang Band 13-1761S 1/2" Silk Dome Tweeter Pair
Can anyone make a recommendation on a good or maybe simple way to split the signal to these drivers?
I have the following driver/tweeters and would like to pair them in the following manner.
Pair 1:
Dayton Audio RS75-4 3" Reference Full-Range Driver 4 Ohm
1/2" Mylar Dome Shielded Tweeter 8 Ohm
Pair 2:
HiVi B3N 3" Aluminum Driver Round Frame
Tang Band 13-1761S 1/2" Silk Dome Tweeter Pair
Can anyone make a recommendation on a good or maybe simple way to split the signal to these drivers?
Hi,
Both of those 3" drivers have enough top end that you may not need a tweeter. Many persons would be matching them with a woofer rather than a tweeter. What did you have in mind?
Both of those 3" drivers have enough top end that you may not need a tweeter. Many persons would be matching them with a woofer rather than a tweeter. What did you have in mind?
If you have to use your existing drivers, the TB tweeter will probably work out OK with the 3" driver, but you must cross over to it pretty high (no lower than about 5kHz). The mylar dome tweeter is junk, and that is why you paid $1 for it. Seriously, throw it in the trash.
Of the 3" drivers, the RS75 is the clear winner there.
It would be better to get the proper drivers for a "real" 2-way. Small diameter full range drivers (e.g. 3") represent a strongly compromised design that tries to do everything and does nothing very well. You will want something at least 5.25" or larger (up to about 7" max) and a good quality 1" dome tweeter with Fs < 700Hz.
Regarding "splitting the signal" you need to design a crossover. Check out Passive Crossover Designer or (better) WinPCD. You will want at least a second order electrical network on the small tweeter and then design the woofer low pass network to match it and to correct for the baffle loss at lower frequencies. Efficiency will be very low with the 3" driver, and this is why it's a compromise.
Of the 3" drivers, the RS75 is the clear winner there.
It would be better to get the proper drivers for a "real" 2-way. Small diameter full range drivers (e.g. 3") represent a strongly compromised design that tries to do everything and does nothing very well. You will want something at least 5.25" or larger (up to about 7" max) and a good quality 1" dome tweeter with Fs < 700Hz.
Regarding "splitting the signal" you need to design a crossover. Check out Passive Crossover Designer or (better) WinPCD. You will want at least a second order electrical network on the small tweeter and then design the woofer low pass network to match it and to correct for the baffle loss at lower frequencies. Efficiency will be very low with the 3" driver, and this is why it's a compromise.
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Thoughts: IF the tw shows a falling response above 10 kHz, its sensitivity would fall too in that band.
So starting with 1 uF ...Probably a resistor for matching the outputs, also.
The tweeter shall be as close (=attached to the frame) as possible
Possible inductor candidates : about 0.1/0.3 mH for 8 Ω ( should be halved for 4 Ω )
So starting with 1 uF ...Probably a resistor for matching the outputs, also.
The tweeter shall be as close (=attached to the frame) as possible
Possible inductor candidates : about 0.1/0.3 mH for 8 Ω ( should be halved for 4 Ω )
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But there are better ones.
Maybe in the selection of FRs you have tried. We have very good (bass shy) performance with some 3" drivers, and superb all round performance using them with helper woofers. We are picky wrt the drivers we use,
Picture is an example of a satelitte that works near fieild/little low bass, with the same footprint helper woofers. Used as a FAST this setup is every bit as good, and i'd say better, than a typical cone+dome 2-way.
dave
I have only heard a few small full range systems (and it's not my thing so I don't really have much background in them) but those that I heard were horribly colored and really sounded like doo doo.
Any 3" driver is going to have a hard time reaching, and reproducing, 100Hz while at the same time reproducing the rest of the audio spectrum. So it's a compromise. With a 2-way (like what you show with your small helper woofers) the situation is definitely improved a bit.
I'm not at all against "wideband" drivers. In fact I am in love with a 2" TangBand that I have used in several speaker as a large format tweeter (radiating area is more like 1.5" diameter). I cross over much lower than a true tweeter (e.g. around 700Hz) to woofers that do the heavy lifting. Efficiency is not bad either. But I would not ask this driver to go below 700Hz because my measurements show that distortion rises and exceeds several percent by the time you reach 100-200Hz!
Any 3" driver is going to have a hard time reaching, and reproducing, 100Hz while at the same time reproducing the rest of the audio spectrum. So it's a compromise. With a 2-way (like what you show with your small helper woofers) the situation is definitely improved a bit.
I'm not at all against "wideband" drivers. In fact I am in love with a 2" TangBand that I have used in several speaker as a large format tweeter (radiating area is more like 1.5" diameter). I cross over much lower than a true tweeter (e.g. around 700Hz) to woofers that do the heavy lifting. Efficiency is not bad either. But I would not ask this driver to go below 700Hz because my measurements show that distortion rises and exceeds several percent by the time you reach 100-200Hz!
Hey Charlie,
The drivers of today really do make all the difference. Years ago this might not be acceptable but there is a reason this FR and helper woofer is becoming popular.
The drivers of today really do make all the difference. Years ago this might not be acceptable but there is a reason this FR and helper woofer is becoming popular.
Thanks all for the great feedback. I guess I can toss those tweeters, they were a last minute thought anyway.
So here is the reason why I was trying to keep everything tiny. I am sure this will cause a few face-palms but here goes.
Attached is my project. Its a raspberry pi powered WiFi radio. This one happens to be mono but I have another that will be stereo. My goal was to keep a small foot print but maintain decent sound...something I think sonos do pretty well. I just figured they were too expensive and thought I could do a decent job on my own. I will ditch the tweeter, as I have another plate without its mount hole.
Perhaps the sheer product/purpose of my design negates some of the high quality audiophile suggestions above?
So here is the reason why I was trying to keep everything tiny. I am sure this will cause a few face-palms but here goes.
Attached is my project. Its a raspberry pi powered WiFi radio. This one happens to be mono but I have another that will be stereo. My goal was to keep a small foot print but maintain decent sound...something I think sonos do pretty well. I just figured they were too expensive and thought I could do a decent job on my own. I will ditch the tweeter, as I have another plate without its mount hole.
Perhaps the sheer product/purpose of my design negates some of the high quality audiophile suggestions above?
Attachments
Also, could someone explain Zaph's filter to me? I am reading his site but still struggling.
zaph|audio
zaph|audio
Also, could someone explain Zaph's filter to me? I am reading his site but still struggling.
zaph|audio
Hi,
L1 and R2 do baffle step, C3, L4 and R5 suppress a peak around 8KHz.
FWIW both can be done actively in the feedback of a chip amp.
rgds, sreten.
The Dayton with an Fs of 170Hz is pretty hopeless without a bass helper.
Thanks!
Questions:
1. This driver is only rated up to 7K. Without a crossover, won't it miss out or mess up the higher stuff? Obviously same goes for the bass
2. How small of a "bass helper" can I get? I assume just some woofer?
3. I have noticed that the SONOS brand stereos have a rubber flexible membrane, it is not powered, just seems to vibrate on its own? See iFixit
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Sonos+Play:3+Teardown/12475
How do they produce decent sound?
I realize at this point I should probably just buy their darn speaker, but I have already invested so much of my own time I would like to get something out of it...other than the realization that I may have wasted it 😉
Questions:
1. This driver is only rated up to 7K. Without a crossover, won't it miss out or mess up the higher stuff? Obviously same goes for the bass
2. How small of a "bass helper" can I get? I assume just some woofer?
3. I have noticed that the SONOS brand stereos have a rubber flexible membrane, it is not powered, just seems to vibrate on its own? See iFixit
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Sonos+Play:3+Teardown/12475
How do they produce decent sound?
I realize at this point I should probably just buy their darn speaker, but I have already invested so much of my own time I would like to get something out of it...other than the realization that I may have wasted it 😉
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I looked at the frequency response graphs of the two three inch drivers you mentioned on page 1, and don't like either of them enough to use for mid and tweeter. I'd have gone with a Peerless 3 inch TG full range driver ($22 at Madisound)(or Vifa TC driver as 2nd choice - $12 ea).
Any 3 inch driver should IMO only be used down to about 400HZ, unless the listeners ear is going to be within a few feet, and even then, going below 200HZ didn't work as good as I had expected in a few systems I built. Too much FM distortion when EQ'd to be acoustically flat at 6 feet out.
The thing about passive crossovers is that they are difficult to get right. The impedance of the drivers is likely to be significantly different than the rated impedance, at the frequency you want to cross them over at. This means you need to measure both the efficiency and the impedance of each driver, before you can legitimately calculate the reactive components and efficiency equalizing resistors involved. If you've got a bunch of time and want to experience that learning curve then fine. Most people will give up at some point or get it way wrong.
That rubber coned thing somebody mentioned would qualify as a passive radiator, which will resonate ideally just below the system resonance to give a little more bass. I once used a regular speaker with a shorted voice coil (for damping) as a passive radiator, and it worked very well, but I think I had a lot of beginners luck with that system.
Personally I'd get an 8 ohm (has better high end response) Peerless TG driver that would run active, and I'd use either of your presently owned 3 inch drivers as a passive radiator. Forget the tweeter and crossover. I'd try the 3 inch passive radiator drivers with and without a short across the voice coil terminals to see which sounded best for giving the bass a slight boost. You could also experiment with putting a resistor across those terminals for limited damping.
Those 1/2 inch tweeters might be OK for above 7kHZ, but again, getting a passive crossover right is a chore for most people, and they wouldn't be needed with the above mentioned Peerless drivers.
Any 3 inch driver should IMO only be used down to about 400HZ, unless the listeners ear is going to be within a few feet, and even then, going below 200HZ didn't work as good as I had expected in a few systems I built. Too much FM distortion when EQ'd to be acoustically flat at 6 feet out.
The thing about passive crossovers is that they are difficult to get right. The impedance of the drivers is likely to be significantly different than the rated impedance, at the frequency you want to cross them over at. This means you need to measure both the efficiency and the impedance of each driver, before you can legitimately calculate the reactive components and efficiency equalizing resistors involved. If you've got a bunch of time and want to experience that learning curve then fine. Most people will give up at some point or get it way wrong.
That rubber coned thing somebody mentioned would qualify as a passive radiator, which will resonate ideally just below the system resonance to give a little more bass. I once used a regular speaker with a shorted voice coil (for damping) as a passive radiator, and it worked very well, but I think I had a lot of beginners luck with that system.
Personally I'd get an 8 ohm (has better high end response) Peerless TG driver that would run active, and I'd use either of your presently owned 3 inch drivers as a passive radiator. Forget the tweeter and crossover. I'd try the 3 inch passive radiator drivers with and without a short across the voice coil terminals to see which sounded best for giving the bass a slight boost. You could also experiment with putting a resistor across those terminals for limited damping.
Those 1/2 inch tweeters might be OK for above 7kHZ, but again, getting a passive crossover right is a chore for most people, and they wouldn't be needed with the above mentioned Peerless drivers.
Thanks Bob, I really appreciate the advice of those who have been through this and can share their experience.
Is there a reason why the Dayton 3" (which has a similar range to the peerless you suggest) is not a good choice?
Also, without a filter, what will happen when the driver gets signal that is outside the rated range?
Is there a reason why the Dayton 3" (which has a similar range to the peerless you suggest) is not a good choice?
Also, without a filter, what will happen when the driver gets signal that is outside the rated range?
I looked at the Dayton 3 inch drivers and thought they were real good in many ways, but the extra high Xmax meant that the surround suspension stuck out far enough to cause some "cavity effect" which I believe caused the frequency response to be a bit rough, especially in the high end. Not nearly as flat as the Peerless TG or Vifa TC driver. I base this on the published spec sheets for each driver, so I'm taking that with a grain of salt and using my intuition a bit on that one. The Dayton would make a better woofer and OK midrange driver up to a point, but if you want it to be a tweeter too, I didn't think it was flat enough.
Would you recommend any of these peerless drivers?
Hi-Fi Woofers, Subwoofers, Midranges & Tweeters in the Speaker Components Department at Parts Express | 13
None of those drivers have as good a frequency response graph as the TG or TC drivers I mentioned. Deviations of more than about 3dB is arguably no longer "Hi-Fi" IMO. Apparently all metal cone drivers have substantial resonance just above the audio range; mid 20's usually. I've heard but not confirmed that energy there causes psychological stress over time. It's also hard on dogs and cats. My cat hears up to 60kHZ if I can believe what I've read.
If I build another speaker system, I'm thinking of doing my own version of the new Linkwitz LXmini, Using the Peerless Nomex cone 6.5 inch (or 8 inch), and a Peerless TG 3 inch. Being able to have a crossover frequency down around 400-600 seems like a big plus to me. Off axis response will be better in the mid and upper-mid frequencies. Cutting a woofer off that low means you could go with a larger diameter woofer, and even a metal cone woofer for the utmost in resolution if you wanted, although in that case I'd use a 4 pole active crossover since metal cone woofers all seem to have substantial resonant peaks right where the ear is most sensitive (2kHZ - 5kHZ). As long as I had a chassis and power supply for the active crossover, I'd also add some active EQ to pump up the low end so the woofer could be close to acoustically flat at the listening position (maybe a 10dB peak at 35HZ, relative to 150HZ, and a sharp rolloff below 30HZ).
I'm also thinking I might want to stack two woofer cabinets, one with the woofer aimed straight down, and the other at the top aimed straight up. The bottom woofer would only handle below 60HZ maybe. I'd have to experiment with that since there would be differential phase shift between the woofers, due to the very different crossover frequencies. Back to back woofers can cancel each others cabinet shaking at the very low frequencies. So it would be a tower, with maybe 4 inches of space under it for the lower woofer. In a smaller room, this system could be quite nice.
The drivers I'm talking about and recommending are:
Peerless Nomex 830875 - 6.5" Nomex Cone Woofer ($60 at Madisound) (or the 8 inch version), and
Peerless TG9FD10-08 3.5" White Fiberglass Cone Full Range in 8 ohm ($21 at Madisound)
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Sorry I am still a newb to this stuff. I am looking at the graphs from the drivers. When you say they are not "flat enough" can you perhaps educate me on what I am looking for? I realize this is outside the scope of the thread. Perhaps there is an article I should read that someone could recommend?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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