Hello there evryone.
Well I am currentely working on a prodject building a biamped guitar amplifier. I wish to use 6v6s on one side ans el 84s on the other. I need to come up with suitable opts for this project. I am considering winding my own but am unfamiliar with toroid winding techniques and have found a complete lack of information on this subject so far. If anybody has info regarding winding toroids or links for this please let me know. If not I am considering using fender deluxe trannys from angela instruments if these are good. The amp so far is based on a 1949 philco floor model radio cabinet chopped 10 inches with a leslie rotating speaker unit from a hammond organ in the rear and a celestion greenback 30.
If anyone knows how to wind a toroid opt for 6v6s or 6bq5s than plese let me know.
Dr. Frankenstein
Well I am currentely working on a prodject building a biamped guitar amplifier. I wish to use 6v6s on one side ans el 84s on the other. I need to come up with suitable opts for this project. I am considering winding my own but am unfamiliar with toroid winding techniques and have found a complete lack of information on this subject so far. If anybody has info regarding winding toroids or links for this please let me know. If not I am considering using fender deluxe trannys from angela instruments if these are good. The amp so far is based on a 1949 philco floor model radio cabinet chopped 10 inches with a leslie rotating speaker unit from a hammond organ in the rear and a celestion greenback 30.
If anyone knows how to wind a toroid opt for 6v6s or 6bq5s than plese let me know.
Dr. Frankenstein
You could try posting on rec.audio.tubes there is a transformer genius there... Otherwise why not buy some currently available ones like the plitrons.
Toroids are hard to get right apparently...
Toroids are hard to get right apparently...
Who the heck can afford plitrons? Any and all info is greatly appreciated though. Thanks Frankenstein
Dr.Frankenstein said:
Hello ,
If you do not require deep bass , consider mains toroids .
cheers 🙂
316a
For a good op transformer, you need to be carefull about how you interleave the primary and secondary windings. Ofthen these are wound in steps, alternating sec and prim, changing layer width etc to get good coupling and low stray cap.
This is definitely not for the newby.
Jan Didden
This is definitely not for the newby.
Jan Didden
Why a Toroid? For DIY I think it is much easier to use a EI- or C-core.
There are a lot of information on the net on how to wind your own OT, as I found the information a bit too scattered to be useful so I wrote my own text that can be found here: http://www2.gol.com/users/tube/transformers.pdf (feedback positive or negative is welcome)
Trying to wind a Toroid without special machines I think is very heavy work and I doubt that you get much better result than with a C-core. One idea is to start with an old C-core mains transformer that can be found for next to nothing. C-core are very close to toroids in performance but much easier to wind and have much problems with DC unbalance.
Regards Hans
There are a lot of information on the net on how to wind your own OT, as I found the information a bit too scattered to be useful so I wrote my own text that can be found here: http://www2.gol.com/users/tube/transformers.pdf (feedback positive or negative is welcome)
Trying to wind a Toroid without special machines I think is very heavy work and I doubt that you get much better result than with a C-core. One idea is to start with an old C-core mains transformer that can be found for next to nothing. C-core are very close to toroids in performance but much easier to wind and have much problems with DC unbalance.
Regards Hans
Thanks to all of you diy ers out there who are helping me gather the info I need to complete my masterpiece. This forum has been a true blessing and I hope we keep it going. FRANKENSTEIN
Hi Hans (Tubetvr),
Are you Japanese now or still Swedish ?
I lived in Japan for a while and loved it . I guess you do too.
But I'm brown and couldn't fit in easily...merge into the surroundings etc.
Sayonara,
Ashok.
Are you Japanese now or still Swedish ?
I lived in Japan for a while and loved it . I guess you do too.
But I'm brown and couldn't fit in easily...merge into the surroundings etc.
Sayonara,
Ashok.
I also think you should avoid even thinking about DIY toroids, as they are virtually impossible to do without a machine. I believe they are wound by first measuring the required quantity of the wire needed for a winding or a section of it, then loading it into a "carrier" spool which is setup to keep a certain tension (according to a wire diameter), and then loading it all into a winding machine which "threads" the carrier through the center of the toroid while roatating it a set "step".
I'm about to do 2 trannies, and I simply chose EI core of a decent size, although Grain Oriented. Price difference is small (at least here in Australia), but quality for this purpose is much better. C core is even better (less stray flux), but it would have cost me nearly double. These kinds of transformers CAN be done DIY-style. It's easy enough to make some sort of handle-cranked winder that will hold the bobbin for next-to-nothing. Sorry if I'm mentioning cost too many times, but isn't that the best thing in DIY? Doing a great thing for nothing?
I'm about to do 2 trannies, and I simply chose EI core of a decent size, although Grain Oriented. Price difference is small (at least here in Australia), but quality for this purpose is much better. C core is even better (less stray flux), but it would have cost me nearly double. These kinds of transformers CAN be done DIY-style. It's easy enough to make some sort of handle-cranked winder that will hold the bobbin for next-to-nothing. Sorry if I'm mentioning cost too many times, but isn't that the best thing in DIY? Doing a great thing for nothing?
Mikie said:
Hi,
There is no any mashine which could wind with the same quality as man could do. 🙂 Toroid is the best for DIY. I mean for PP.
Several examples. Last is for power suppl. On the background
output toroid in amp.
http://friendpages.com/pages/music/igma/photo12.jpg
http://friendpages.com/pages/music/igma/photo13.jpg
Igor.
Attachments
Yes, there is a mashine that can do better than man. It's called "transformer winding machine" and it's sole purpose is to wind transformers. It will wind it tighter, neater, and when properly set up, without any breakage of wire, no matter how thin.
If toroid is the "way to go" for DIY, as you say, please explain to me how would you wind 2000 turns of 0.3 mm wire on a toroid, while keeping it all tight, neat and all in one piece? Thread it with a needle?
I think you may have this whole DIY thing taken a bit too far. Next we'll be rolling paper and soaking it in oil for capacitors.
If toroid is the "way to go" for DIY, as you say, please explain to me how would you wind 2000 turns of 0.3 mm wire on a toroid, while keeping it all tight, neat and all in one piece? Thread it with a needle?
I think you may have this whole DIY thing taken a bit too far. Next we'll be rolling paper and soaking it in oil for capacitors.
My two cents
If someone wants to make a trannie all the more power to him. The method used to wind the thousands of layers is still a shuttle as shown in the picture. And please note that almost every winding house will prototype by hand!
Patience, perseverance pay off. With enough thought and wisdom from members of this forum many things are possible.
Mark
If someone wants to make a trannie all the more power to him. The method used to wind the thousands of layers is still a shuttle as shown in the picture. And please note that almost every winding house will prototype by hand!
Patience, perseverance pay off. With enough thought and wisdom from members of this forum many things are possible.
Mark
I have seen a toroid machine and it's a very complex one.
But why you'd like toroid.What will you do with the gap of it!?
🙁
Even P-P OPTs need a little gap.Winders that are serious with their OPTs use gap.
Go double C-core and you will not be dissapointed.
And use a little gap!!
🙂
But why you'd like toroid.What will you do with the gap of it!?
🙁
Even P-P OPTs need a little gap.Winders that are serious with their OPTs use gap.
Go double C-core and you will not be dissapointed.
And use a little gap!!
🙂
Hi, again.
With patience you could do everything better than machine because u understand what u are doing each moment. I never
saw machine made toroid with proper puting winds. Esp. if u
whant to wind by diff. diameter wires with a lot of sereis. With
different (soft) materials of isolation. The tor I shown has exactly
2* 2000 turns of 0.35 mm wire. 🙂 And it has 5HZ - 50kHz range
at 50Watts. So, handmade... 🙂
Yes, it engage a lot of time. Almost one month for each
transformer. But we are not hurring up, arn't we?
Resident:
About the gap. Gap is no the goal itself. Gap makes the magnetic line longer and that's all. But gap spoils sensitivity.
I consider, it is an advantage of PP using cores with no gap.
Anyway we need quite big core. It's easy could be counted.
Igor.
Mikie said:
With patience you could do everything better than machine because u understand what u are doing each moment. I never
saw machine made toroid with proper puting winds. Esp. if u
whant to wind by diff. diameter wires with a lot of sereis. With
different (soft) materials of isolation. The tor I shown has exactly
2* 2000 turns of 0.35 mm wire. 🙂 And it has 5HZ - 50kHz range
at 50Watts. So, handmade... 🙂
resident said:
Yes, it engage a lot of time. Almost one month for each
transformer. But we are not hurring up, arn't we?
Resident:
About the gap. Gap is no the goal itself. Gap makes the magnetic line longer and that's all. But gap spoils sensitivity.
I consider, it is an advantage of PP using cores with no gap.
Anyway we need quite big core. It's easy could be counted.
Igor.
Igor,
Toroidal type cores look very good on paper but they are the most sensitive to DC magnetisation and are also more difficult to wind in sections.
Regarding sensitivity to DC magnetisation it should be noted that DC balance btw tubes in a push-pull amplifier can change when the tube ages.Ideally a P-P stage should be rebalanced now and then.
Another cause of unbalance in the transformer is dynamic unbalance btw the tubes, this will show itself as even order distortion even though the tubes are DC balanced and if dynamic unbalance is large the transformer can saturate on signal peaks which will limit low frequency output power.
(notes by Hans Beijner)
5 Hz – 50 KHz flat????
What about THD?
Another very important thing is that turns must be exatly next to other. They must be placed with a precise order!!! Sth I don’t see in your foto.
And all layers must be the same length. Something that doesn’t exist with toroids, cause you didn’t get out the wire from the edges of a bobbin like C-cores but from inside of the windings.So none layer is the same with the other.Us you go from inside to outside,layers getting smaller!!
So what’s going on with efficiency, leakage inductance and stray capacitance??
The efficiency of a transformer depends on winding and not from the core of it!
A common C-core has B about 1,7T, but how much of this can you adopt without add distortion?
Toroidal type cores look very good on paper but they are the most sensitive to DC magnetisation and are also more difficult to wind in sections.
Regarding sensitivity to DC magnetisation it should be noted that DC balance btw tubes in a push-pull amplifier can change when the tube ages.Ideally a P-P stage should be rebalanced now and then.
Another cause of unbalance in the transformer is dynamic unbalance btw the tubes, this will show itself as even order distortion even though the tubes are DC balanced and if dynamic unbalance is large the transformer can saturate on signal peaks which will limit low frequency output power.
(notes by Hans Beijner)
5 Hz – 50 KHz flat????
What about THD?
Another very important thing is that turns must be exatly next to other. They must be placed with a precise order!!! Sth I don’t see in your foto.
And all layers must be the same length. Something that doesn’t exist with toroids, cause you didn’t get out the wire from the edges of a bobbin like C-cores but from inside of the windings.So none layer is the same with the other.Us you go from inside to outside,layers getting smaller!!
So what’s going on with efficiency, leakage inductance and stray capacitance??
The efficiency of a transformer depends on winding and not from the core of it!
A common C-core has B about 1,7T, but how much of this can you adopt without add distortion?
Hi, Resident
All you are saying is correct. But all this difficulties correspond to
EI cores as well. I have facts, ready transformers and wind only
toroids. That is not for sale, that is for myself...dear 🙂, so I try
to do the best. All problems that you noticed, I solved. But there
are lot of others... common to EI & O. My amps working years
and evrything is Oki. I apply pics of funny construction. It has 4
50 Watts toroids. 2 for power, 2 for output.
http://friendpages.com/pages/music/igma/photo1.jpg
http://friendpages.com/pages/music/igma/photo14.jpg
May be later I'll write an article about tor-winding , because there
are a lot of questions about it.
Now I'm trying just to ensure you that problems EI and O cores
are the same. Anyway I see a row of advatages in tors, which
already discussed in different articles. I'm not so strong in English
to argue them. Sorry about that.
Rgs, Igor.
All you are saying is correct. But all this difficulties correspond to
EI cores as well. I have facts, ready transformers and wind only
toroids. That is not for sale, that is for myself...dear 🙂, so I try
to do the best. All problems that you noticed, I solved. But there
are lot of others... common to EI & O. My amps working years
and evrything is Oki. I apply pics of funny construction. It has 4
50 Watts toroids. 2 for power, 2 for output.
http://friendpages.com/pages/music/igma/photo1.jpg
http://friendpages.com/pages/music/igma/photo14.jpg
May be later I'll write an article about tor-winding , because there
are a lot of questions about it.
Now I'm trying just to ensure you that problems EI and O cores
are the same. Anyway I see a row of advatages in tors, which
already discussed in different articles. I'm not so strong in English
to argue them. Sorry about that.
Rgs, Igor.
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