i was just wondering whilst taking an outing through FR forum, Why is it alot of people seem to use CAT5 cabling?
I mean yes its good copper, probably as thick as necessary, but doesnt stranded copper carry high frquencies better(surface 'skin' effect)?
I tend to use 16-18 gauge mains cord or similar gauge cheap 'speaker' wire, and tend to look for a reasonable gauge and many strands as a prerequisite.
Is it capacitance that makes the difference? and if so, why not just 'unzip' the two halves of the cable.....
Anything i havent thought of that deserves a mention?
I mean yes its good copper, probably as thick as necessary, but doesnt stranded copper carry high frquencies better(surface 'skin' effect)?
I tend to use 16-18 gauge mains cord or similar gauge cheap 'speaker' wire, and tend to look for a reasonable gauge and many strands as a prerequisite.
Is it capacitance that makes the difference? and if so, why not just 'unzip' the two halves of the cable.....
Anything i havent thought of that deserves a mention?
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Fashion. Convenience. Cost.
I use it in my preamp cabling because it's tightly twisted and (if you buy the right kind) well-shielded. For speakers, it's no better and no worse than the equivalent gauge of zipcord. Use what you like and let the fashionistas rail at you about "hooded trebles" or "refulgent midrange."
I use it in my preamp cabling because it's tightly twisted and (if you buy the right kind) well-shielded. For speakers, it's no better and no worse than the equivalent gauge of zipcord. Use what you like and let the fashionistas rail at you about "hooded trebles" or "refulgent midrange."
Stranded copper only has better skin effect properties if each strand is insulated from each other (like Litz wire). Otherwise, stranded just acts like solid of just slightly smaller gague.
I can't hear the difference, but a friend I highly respect says there is one and with his proven skills, I have no reason to doubt him.
Cheers!
I can't hear the difference, but a friend I highly respect says there is one and with his proven skills, I have no reason to doubt him.
Cheers!
lol fashion sounds about right........
And yes the effect of SA would be greater in Litz wire, but im sure that many strands still have greater SA than a solid conductor, though not as great a difference as the simple numbers would have me believe, since a portion of each strand is touching its neighbour...
Ill just stick with some low C thick gauge cable i think,,,unless i can afford solid silver cable sometime in the future
😱
And yes the effect of SA would be greater in Litz wire, but im sure that many strands still have greater SA than a solid conductor, though not as great a difference as the simple numbers would have me believe, since a portion of each strand is touching its neighbour...
Ill just stick with some low C thick gauge cable i think,,,unless i can afford solid silver cable sometime in the future
😱
Low cost, fashion (largely caused by some DIY articles from a few years back that were based on dodgy physics) etc.
Skin effect is usually irrelevant at audio frequencies. See Skin Effect Relevance in Speaker Cables — Reviews and News from Audioholics and Skin Effect and cable impedance
As illustrated in the former, AC & DC losses associated with a 10ft length of 12ga zip wire is in the region of 0.18dB at 20KHz. You're more likely to suffer audible HF issues through excessive wire inductance (note: I am not advocating daft hyper-low inductance designs that push capacitance through the roof) than skin effect per se, especially over long runs.
Skin effect is usually irrelevant at audio frequencies. See Skin Effect Relevance in Speaker Cables — Reviews and News from Audioholics and Skin Effect and cable impedance
As illustrated in the former, AC & DC losses associated with a 10ft length of 12ga zip wire is in the region of 0.18dB at 20KHz. You're more likely to suffer audible HF issues through excessive wire inductance (note: I am not advocating daft hyper-low inductance designs that push capacitance through the roof) than skin effect per se, especially over long runs.
Extremely good wire for almost no cost because we can ride on the backs of billions of miles made for the computer industry.
As important as the wire is the dielectric. Plenum grade CAT5 uses teflon.
Particularily with amplifiers with low output impedance, the higher resistance of the skinny wire can knock back the damping factor, which has some positive benefit with some FR speakers.
dave
As important as the wire is the dielectric. Plenum grade CAT5 uses teflon.
Particularily with amplifiers with low output impedance, the higher resistance of the skinny wire can knock back the damping factor, which has some positive benefit with some FR speakers.
dave
Assumes a perfect voltage amplifier.
Of more importance (likely) than any HF level loss, is any time delay introduced as the human hearing mechanism is more sensitive to this than HF frequency response (and this capability degrades much slower as we age than frequency detection capabilities)
How audiable this is in cable is still hotly debated.
dave
Right, it's the worst case. With a less-than-perfect voltage amplifier, the minuscule loss gets even smaller. And with normal tweeter impedance rise, smaller yet. I ran through those calculations in another thread.
Also assumes a purely resistive load and that skin effect rather than inductance due to geometry is the primary impedance at 20 kHz, both extremely questionable.
I can see that increasing the impedance seen by the speaker maybe a beneift to FR owners(not me unfortunately) just as using small R to increase the Qts of a driver may also be a benefit if used judiciously.#
However, im not all that sure i rate PTFE insulation anyway.....I wouldn't claim to be an expert but in the applications i see it used(namely for insulating electrical generator bearings from circulating AC currents), its non slip behavior is more important, and indeed more consistant than its insulation properties.
More importantly, as low as the capacitance may be, i cant help but think that the closer proximity of adjacent conductors would increase capacitance greatly, when compared to my £0.50/metre speaker cable which the conductors are spaced about 3mm apart.
On the subject of inductance, all have valid points i believe.
Yes no one here has a perfect voltage amp. We have POWER amps. voltage stage, current stage, or a variation of. IMHO the perfect amp is meaningless, higher wire res will increase volts decrease current flow regardless. the net product is less power. END OF. decrease in power, decrease in output amplitude from drivers. fractions of a dB are pretty meaningless too as i question the beliefs of some that they can hear this(noone here has said they can lol)
but back to inductance...sorry.
according to what i know of inductors from winding my own, smaller gauge yields higher L than larger gauge wire; that is for a given coil diameter and length of wire.
Surely then, this would mean that cat5 would in fact be MORE inductively reactive than other larger gauge cabling, particularly if twisted as i know many people advocate. you may as well try coax TV cable IMO, harsh as that may sound...
common mode noise..........lol if low level signal and a balanced system then yes but at speaker levels...questionable. sorry just reading some snake oil peddlers opinions ,,, side tracked again.
The only reason i can see to use Cat5(or 6 etc) would be its price, although i don't think its a lot cheaper than £0.50/metre, unless you're getting 100m or 1km at a time...is it really any better than 'el cheapo boggo' standard twin mains flex? i doubt it. unless you can get the CAT5 free. since i can get plenty of silicone rubber insulated 13amp twin core, For free no less, then i think i may stick to that stuff, unless there is some really good reason for me to use a weak solid core cable, with ultra thin insulation
No offense meant Dave, you speak a lot of sense on here most of the time, and i respect that. I even respect the strange, mad, verging on 'snake oil' support you give to enable; merely as i haven't tried it and cant dispute it, as there is a gnat's wings chance it might well work at least slightly.
However, i cant support the opinion that CAT5 would be beneficial over plain 2 core mains--not at least without real evidence, for the reasons above.
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wouldn't CAT6 be a better alternative then? From what I understand, CAT6 is better shielded, lower noise levels and also you can get cables where each strand are guaranteed to be the same length.
plus that and the time delay you speak of, if not imagined by those that believe it; would be caused capacitively i assume, much like the 'buckets' in a BBD IC, and i would've though would be worse in CAT5, if what i said above is in fact correct...which i would believe is but haven't proved as yet 🙄
at any rate...increasing the 'seen' output inpedance of the amp is the absolute opposite that i would like to achieve, since i dont want to mess with my speakers QTS and hence tuning, electrically. If i did id make some field coils at work and knock the magnets off my speakers with a lump hammer, and experiment...😀
at any rate...increasing the 'seen' output inpedance of the amp is the absolute opposite that i would like to achieve, since i dont want to mess with my speakers QTS and hence tuning, electrically. If i did id make some field coils at work and knock the magnets off my speakers with a lump hammer, and experiment...😀
FWIW, many of use with full range drivers and tube amps are using a single pair of cat5 wires per channel, not several twisted pairs braided together.
Jeff
Jeff
Yep, thin but very effective. Sometimes less is more.
I use solid core Cat 6. I was able to get it for less than the Cat 5 (on sale) and the conductor seems slightly thicker than Cat 5 as well.
Cheers,
Alex
I use solid core Cat 6. I was able to get it for less than the Cat 5 (on sale) and the conductor seems slightly thicker than Cat 5 as well.
Cheers,
Alex
In my speaker cables i actually pull all the strands apart and space 2 single wires a couple cm apart on a piece of packing tape.
For a tidier cable, Chris took 2 seperate strands and spiralled them around a piece of plastic aquarium tubing crossing each other orthoganally.
And free is a common price for CAT 5. Leftovers from a network install are pretty common.
Try it. Or not.
dave
Yes. It's all Dave's fault.😉
Right now I'm trying some mil spec stranded wire. 22g silver tinned copper wire, teflon coated with a silver braided shield, all wrapped in teflon shrink. This is very fancy wire compared to cat5, but I honestly can't hear any difference between the two.
Jeff
I think only because of the fill factor - (you can get more thin wire in the winding space) which does not apply in this case.
Cat5 is probably fairly transparent to amps with low damping factor - some valve amps, but for grunty ss amps that want to move cones like solenoids, it will be a disaster.
On the subject of tweeters. Some of the reasons for using such wire on a FR, makes it just the opposite with a tweeter & the typical bang in the most sentitive place XO points. The XOs often have a big impedance rise there which ends up with a bump in the FR because of higher output impedance.
Amp, speaker, & the cables connecting them always need to be looked at as a system.
dave
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