Hello,
I've recently listened to the Sonus Faber Olympica III and they made the magic that comes out of those mid woofers made me realize how much I want beautiful, dynamic, warm and lifelike midrange and I started worrying about having a good enough mid woofer in my 3-way towers the deliver the midrange I want.
So what do you guys suggest would sound better (with that I mean more natural, dynamic, lifelike, warm, clarity and perhaps detailed) as a mid woofer, a Dayton Audio RS180P-4 or ES180Ti-4.
The one with the Reference Series RS180P-4 will be coupled with two ES180Ti-8's as woofers. The 7" RS has a phase plug, paper cone which are known to be good for midrange, and that paper cone is driven by a 1-1/2" voice coil which can handle 60 watts RMS. The results are a butter smooth frequency response, especially in the range it will play in my application, and it sounds good (see above what I mean with good) according to the reviews, I already expect anyway because of the phase plug, paper cone and everything around it.
The concept also has some cons though. The woofers I will use with it are two ES180Ti-8, I can't chose different woofers because I already have two of these. There are two versions of this woofer, the Ti and the TiA. The Ti, which is the one we're talking about now, I chose because I were originally building bookshelf speakers and the Ti version has a slightly higher sensitivity than the TiA which is nice for getting the most output from such a tiny speaker for when I want it but I recently noticed the Ti also has a enormous impedance peak around 40 Hz, right in it's operating range, which might not be too big of a problem to with help of the crossover, actieve DSP driven in my case, but it would still be nicer to not have it there. Also, now that I'm using two woofers in a tower instead of one these woofers can play very, very loud, so loud that it's very hard to about match the output with a single tweeter and especially mid woofer.
The concept with the ES180Ti-8's as mid woofer and two ES180TiA-8's as woofers on the other hand solves the problem of the huge impedance peak in the operating range of the woofers, this peak at 40 Hz is way smaller with the TiA woofers. And the ES180Ti-8 as mid woofer won't remotely play 40 Hz, so that problem is solved.
Also, I certainly don't doubt the Reference Series woofer will have very good midrange performance because Dayton Audio might be a relatively budget brand, in the Netherlands €70,- for a Dayton Audio Reference Series woofer is certainly not cheap and I know that Dayton Audio products are known for performing like something twice their price but I still wouldn't mind an upgrade, and I'm pretty sure the Esoteric Series woofers will definitely be one.
Almost double the power handling and in diameter twice as big voice coil as that of the Reference Series woofer will for sure make for an even beter impuls respons, reviews also seem to be even more stoked about the dynamics and clarity than they are about the Reference Series woofers which might not be a surprise given it's more than twice higher price but that doesn't say everything because of the completely different construction with it's woven glass fiber cone without a phase plug.
But it also certainly has some cons. The maximum output is over 5 dB lower than that of the two TiA woofers together, that of the Reference Series woofer is only 2 dB lower so that would be wat less balanced and it would badly limit how loud the system can play when I want it to. And also there's the double price.
Also the army with three of the same Esoteric Series woofers does certainly not look bad in my opinion but a truly dedicated looking mid woofer looks way more fitting to me.
But at the end it's mainly the resulting sound quality that matters here so what do you guys suggest would sound better at the end of the day? If we don't consider the extra expense, aesthetics, politics and certainly not the WAF since I'm a 15-year-old.
Would like to hear your opinion.
I've recently listened to the Sonus Faber Olympica III and they made the magic that comes out of those mid woofers made me realize how much I want beautiful, dynamic, warm and lifelike midrange and I started worrying about having a good enough mid woofer in my 3-way towers the deliver the midrange I want.
So what do you guys suggest would sound better (with that I mean more natural, dynamic, lifelike, warm, clarity and perhaps detailed) as a mid woofer, a Dayton Audio RS180P-4 or ES180Ti-4.
The one with the Reference Series RS180P-4 will be coupled with two ES180Ti-8's as woofers. The 7" RS has a phase plug, paper cone which are known to be good for midrange, and that paper cone is driven by a 1-1/2" voice coil which can handle 60 watts RMS. The results are a butter smooth frequency response, especially in the range it will play in my application, and it sounds good (see above what I mean with good) according to the reviews, I already expect anyway because of the phase plug, paper cone and everything around it.
The concept also has some cons though. The woofers I will use with it are two ES180Ti-8, I can't chose different woofers because I already have two of these. There are two versions of this woofer, the Ti and the TiA. The Ti, which is the one we're talking about now, I chose because I were originally building bookshelf speakers and the Ti version has a slightly higher sensitivity than the TiA which is nice for getting the most output from such a tiny speaker for when I want it but I recently noticed the Ti also has a enormous impedance peak around 40 Hz, right in it's operating range, which might not be too big of a problem to with help of the crossover, actieve DSP driven in my case, but it would still be nicer to not have it there. Also, now that I'm using two woofers in a tower instead of one these woofers can play very, very loud, so loud that it's very hard to about match the output with a single tweeter and especially mid woofer.
The concept with the ES180Ti-8's as mid woofer and two ES180TiA-8's as woofers on the other hand solves the problem of the huge impedance peak in the operating range of the woofers, this peak at 40 Hz is way smaller with the TiA woofers. And the ES180Ti-8 as mid woofer won't remotely play 40 Hz, so that problem is solved.
Also, I certainly don't doubt the Reference Series woofer will have very good midrange performance because Dayton Audio might be a relatively budget brand, in the Netherlands €70,- for a Dayton Audio Reference Series woofer is certainly not cheap and I know that Dayton Audio products are known for performing like something twice their price but I still wouldn't mind an upgrade, and I'm pretty sure the Esoteric Series woofers will definitely be one.
Almost double the power handling and in diameter twice as big voice coil as that of the Reference Series woofer will for sure make for an even beter impuls respons, reviews also seem to be even more stoked about the dynamics and clarity than they are about the Reference Series woofers which might not be a surprise given it's more than twice higher price but that doesn't say everything because of the completely different construction with it's woven glass fiber cone without a phase plug.
But it also certainly has some cons. The maximum output is over 5 dB lower than that of the two TiA woofers together, that of the Reference Series woofer is only 2 dB lower so that would be wat less balanced and it would badly limit how loud the system can play when I want it to. And also there's the double price.
Also the army with three of the same Esoteric Series woofers does certainly not look bad in my opinion but a truly dedicated looking mid woofer looks way more fitting to me.
But at the end it's mainly the resulting sound quality that matters here so what do you guys suggest would sound better at the end of the day? If we don't consider the extra expense, aesthetics, politics and certainly not the WAF since I'm a 15-year-old.
Would like to hear your opinion.
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"what do you guys suggest would sound better" neither, they're just different
"impedance peak around 40 Hz" - this is normal, nothing to be concerned about
"Reference Series woofer is certainly not cheap" - this is all relative, for not much more you'd likely get better performance from offerings by SEAS or SB, using a smaller mid-woofer (5" or 4") will give you better dispersion
"maximum output is over 5 dB lower" - have you considered whether Baffle Step is required?
Seems you've got the old problem, Champagne taste, beer budget. Sonus Faber are in the Scanspeak driver range, quite expensive....
"impedance peak around 40 Hz" - this is normal, nothing to be concerned about
"Reference Series woofer is certainly not cheap" - this is all relative, for not much more you'd likely get better performance from offerings by SEAS or SB, using a smaller mid-woofer (5" or 4") will give you better dispersion
"maximum output is over 5 dB lower" - have you considered whether Baffle Step is required?
Seems you've got the old problem, Champagne taste, beer budget. Sonus Faber are in the Scanspeak driver range, quite expensive....
I would use the Dayton Audio RS180P-4 in a sealed 0.5cuft volume with -F3~67Hz for the midBASS because:
1) the Mms = 12.4g vs. 27.1g for the ES180Ti-4
2) the cone has a modest curve-linear profile vs. the straight profile required by the woven fabric on the ES180Ti-4
THE NEW and IMPROVED RS28-F 1.1" dome tweeter is on sale at Parts Express for ~$30, and it is famous for strong performance at the low (~1,600-1,700) crossover frequency ideal for the RS180P (based upon SPL graphs)
The ES180Ti-8 has an Fs~35Hz and Qts~0.4, so FOR TWO you will need a 1.7cuft volume ported box/speaker to get -F3 ~38Hz. (3" port 5.9" long with two simple cut ends)
You want the tweeter near ear level 36"-39", and you want the two ES180Ti woofers just a few inches below the RS180P for best single-point coherence.
1) the Mms = 12.4g vs. 27.1g for the ES180Ti-4
2) the cone has a modest curve-linear profile vs. the straight profile required by the woven fabric on the ES180Ti-4
THE NEW and IMPROVED RS28-F 1.1" dome tweeter is on sale at Parts Express for ~$30, and it is famous for strong performance at the low (~1,600-1,700) crossover frequency ideal for the RS180P (based upon SPL graphs)
The ES180Ti-8 has an Fs~35Hz and Qts~0.4, so FOR TWO you will need a 1.7cuft volume ported box/speaker to get -F3 ~38Hz. (3" port 5.9" long with two simple cut ends)
You want the tweeter near ear level 36"-39", and you want the two ES180Ti woofers just a few inches below the RS180P for best single-point coherence.
Just look at these huge magnets on the 7" woofers, i wonder where they come from. Definitely not a Scan Speak.
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might actually be Scan Speak, quite a few Revelator series woofers quite look like that.
I'm using 3 ES180ti per side in a design I just started on, a type of 3.5 way (3.3 way?)
3 in parallel, top 2 cross to a dedicated mid around 450hz, the bottom 1 has an extra inductor to roll it off above 300 or so.
3 in parallel, top 2 cross to a dedicated mid around 450hz, the bottom 1 has an extra inductor to roll it off above 300 or so.
My enclosure design is on point. I've measured the height of my ears when sitting in the couch on which I'll be listening, 1,1 m, the tweeter is placed just about 5 cm higher than that, perfect.
I already decided to make the midrange chamber sealed because of the better impuls response, it also has a shape in it which very subtly leads to nothing (don't know what it's called).
In terms of size and available volume for the woofers it's just alright as well. When I design my speakers I first determine how high it has to be for the tweeter to be at the right height and then look at how wide the baffle has to be at a minimum. The I start 3D modeling and I determine the the ratios of the dimensions of the enclosure which I find to look the best, cm by cm. In this case it turned out to be 125 cm high, by 27 cm wide by 50 cm deep making for about 80 L (2-1/2 to 3 ft3), which is so motherF-ing big that I'm gonna make the woofer section a MLTL.
Further the enclosure has curved sides, rounded edges, an slanted top and metal feet to place the entire thing on and tilt it, which doesn't only make the design complete and as beautiful as it in my opinion can possibly get, but also helps realigning the phase.
Further features of the design are decoupled tweeter and mid woofer to minimize the vibrations the pick up from the woofers, mounted on soft mounted aluminum adapters which I will watercut with my uncle.
The woofers aren't decoupled because that's more or too difficult and also isn't it really that necessary because the tweeter and mid woofer already are decoupled and the huge enclosure with lots of studs made out of 2,5 cm thick MDF and a double layered front baffle will already be able to handle the vibrations of the woofers by itself.
I have already found and bought a tweeter though, the Fountek NeoX3.0 ribbon tweeter. It's maximum output can totally compete with that of the woofers, and there's obviously also the sound quality and sound quality to price ratio reasons why I chose a ribbon. I love them.
And just to let you know, the entire thing is actieve powered by triple mono HifimeDIY T3 mono amps with the Jantzen caps upgrade with two MiniDSP 2x4's as actieve crossover and DSP.
Oh my god guys, I'm so sorry and already internally laughing myself to death. The impedance peak is exactly the same with both woofers, it's just because of the smaller sized graph making the peak look way bigger, if I would have actually red it instead of just looked at it this would have never been a problem. Man I feel so stupid.
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I've already been looking for and comparing other just slightly more expensive mid woofers from Peerless, Scan Speak, and even Accuton but I still just found them to have to low maximum output, surprisingly, the Dayton Audio woofers have by far the highest sensitivity and maximum output of all of the more expensive ones I've compared.
But great idea, I could use baffle step, how does that work again? If area between the edge of the driver and the edge of the enclosure is (more than) half the wavelength of X frequency you will get 3 dB more, right?
I know, I'm putting the bar very very high for myself but I'm doing that on purpose to drive my self to make the absolute best I can for my budget. I really really want to build something as good as possible to compete with stuff twice the price of not just of my speakers but the entire system. At least I want to beat my parents speakers at a minimum, they are the Mordaunt Short Performance 6. They each cost the same as my entire system (€2.500,- to €3.000,-) and I don't like them. They lack a lot of bass, midrange isn't to exciting and the dipole tweeter less than half a meter away from the wall makes the highs just a big, washy cloud leading to very poor imaging. But I'm still putting the bar way higher than that. I know I'm not going to compete or let alone beat the super expensive brands like Wilson Audio, Magico, the higher grade Dynaudio, Sonus Faber but I do look at the technologies they use and try to use them in my speakers.
I've looked compared some more woofers and now that I've taken a better look at more different options I feel so foolish because to be honest all of the sudden I'm blown away by how many amazing woofers there are that fit my budget and needs.
I've listed a couple of options:
First: Morel CAW 638. This is a 160 mm woofer and it's straight-out insane for it's size. It's huge 3" voice coil is rated 150 watts RMS (more than my f-ing woofers!) and it can reach 107,5 dB which with the additional 3 dB from baffle step will literally be perfect but when looking at the factors that determine good midrange (phase plug, shape of the cone...) it doesn't look that promising.
Then, the SB Satori MW16P-4, I don't really know anything special in terms of extreme features but it just does look very high end. It has a nicely shaped paper cone and that very high end sort of motor structure and in terms of specs it's pretty good as well. It can handle 60 watts RMS and has a sensitivity of 90,5 dB, the highest of the list I compared, so that's exactly the same as the Dayton Audio Reference Series woofer making it the second loudest one on the list with 108,1 dB max output but with a price tag of €142,50 it's the most expensive one on the list though.
Then, the Peerless by Tymphany NE180W-04. It has that same high end kinda motor structure as the Satori but just a little simpler which is understandable because with €109,95 it's the least expensive on the list. It also has that same sort of very promising looking paper cone like the Satori but surprisingly, this one can play very loud. it has a sensitivity of 88 dB but for it's price a pretty bulky power handling of 80 watts RMS making it capable of reaching 109,1 dB, which is the highest.
But now, last but certainly not least: the SEAS U180RNX/P H1571-08. This thing is by far my favorite. You know when you're just scrolling through the products list and see something nice you go like ooh but when you see absolutely amazing you go like (inhales like being scared) holy! with rounded Trump-like lips and get an erection? When I saw this woofer, I had that last one. A beautiful black phase plug (which is good for midrange obviously) in the middle of that unbelievably gorgeous woven polypropylene (which is good for midrange) nicely curve shaped (which is good for midrange) cone. Visually it's the most beautiful mid woofer I've ever, period. The similar looking cone material also makes for nice unity between the woofers and mid woofer.
And not only visually, for sound it's pretty good as well. The cone shape and material is obviously a pro. It's the only one on the list with a phase plug which is a huge pro, and looking at the specs of the motor it's pretty good as well, 80 watts RMS an motherF-ing 250 watts peak (higher than the woofers!) from a decently sized 1-1/2" voice coil driving the second lightest cone on the list with a mms of just 13,4 g. And it's medium price tag of €112,72 is nice as well.
I think the SEAS is the clear wi new for me but still tell me what you think.
I've listed a couple of options:
First: Morel CAW 638. This is a 160 mm woofer and it's straight-out insane for it's size. It's huge 3" voice coil is rated 150 watts RMS (more than my f-ing woofers!) and it can reach 107,5 dB which with the additional 3 dB from baffle step will literally be perfect but when looking at the factors that determine good midrange (phase plug, shape of the cone...) it doesn't look that promising.
Then, the SB Satori MW16P-4, I don't really know anything special in terms of extreme features but it just does look very high end. It has a nicely shaped paper cone and that very high end sort of motor structure and in terms of specs it's pretty good as well. It can handle 60 watts RMS and has a sensitivity of 90,5 dB, the highest of the list I compared, so that's exactly the same as the Dayton Audio Reference Series woofer making it the second loudest one on the list with 108,1 dB max output but with a price tag of €142,50 it's the most expensive one on the list though.
Then, the Peerless by Tymphany NE180W-04. It has that same high end kinda motor structure as the Satori but just a little simpler which is understandable because with €109,95 it's the least expensive on the list. It also has that same sort of very promising looking paper cone like the Satori but surprisingly, this one can play very loud. it has a sensitivity of 88 dB but for it's price a pretty bulky power handling of 80 watts RMS making it capable of reaching 109,1 dB, which is the highest.
But now, last but certainly not least: the SEAS U180RNX/P H1571-08. This thing is by far my favorite. You know when you're just scrolling through the products list and see something nice you go like ooh but when you see absolutely amazing you go like (inhales like being scared) holy! with rounded Trump-like lips and get an erection? When I saw this woofer, I had that last one. A beautiful black phase plug (which is good for midrange obviously) in the middle of that unbelievably gorgeous woven polypropylene (which is good for midrange) nicely curve shaped (which is good for midrange) cone. Visually it's the most beautiful mid woofer I've ever, period. The similar looking cone material also makes for nice unity between the woofers and mid woofer.
And not only visually, for sound it's pretty good as well. The cone shape and material is obviously a pro. It's the only one on the list with a phase plug which is a huge pro, and looking at the specs of the motor it's pretty good as well, 80 watts RMS an motherF-ing 250 watts peak (higher than the woofers!) from a decently sized 1-1/2" voice coil driving the second lightest cone on the list with a mms of just 13,4 g. And it's medium price tag of €112,72 is nice as well.
I think the SEAS is the clear wi new for me but still tell me what you think.
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SB do those in white too. Also the CAC ceramics might be worth looking into, v good value.
Then there are the poly cone HDS woofers.. heard some and they sounded great. The nomex ones are supposed to be even better.
I wouldnt worry about phase plugs that much
Then there are the poly cone HDS woofers.. heard some and they sounded great. The nomex ones are supposed to be even better.
I wouldnt worry about phase plugs that much
You mentioned that you already own two ES180Ti-8 woofers and two Fountek NeoX3.0 ribbon tweeters which you want to use in this design. Fountek recommends a crossover of over 2kHz for the NeoX3.0 ribbon tweeter, and the Fountek SPL measument data confirms this requirement. To avoid distortion from beaming and cone breakup, a crossover around 2.3kHz favors a 5" diameter midrange.
These 5" midranges have Mms under 6grams to help match the details of a ribbon tweeter:
The Satori MR13P-4 gets good reviews from Nelson Pass.
The 5" Tang Band W5-2143 has been used successfully with ribbons tweeters.
These 5" midranges have Mms under 6grams to help match the details of a ribbon tweeter:
The Satori MR13P-4 gets good reviews from Nelson Pass.
The 5" Tang Band W5-2143 has been used successfully with ribbons tweeters.
That Satori you're talking about does indeed look like a very good option, I think I'll go with that one. Thanks for the great advice. 🙂
I haven't heard them, but the Satori drivers seem to have gotten a very good rap since they were introduced.
Have you considered building your woofer cabinets separate from your mid/high cabinets?...
I know you're shooting for the stars, but when the inevitable dissatisfaction sets in, it'll make things easier to upgrade/swap...
Have you considered building your woofer cabinets separate from your mid/high cabinets?...
I know you're shooting for the stars, but when the inevitable dissatisfaction sets in, it'll make things easier to upgrade/swap...
🙂 Only the new Virgin White Cones can produce the Pure Tones you are seeking 🙂
In the USA(Madisound) both the white cone MR13PNW-4 and black cone MR13P-4 cost the same $131
Most favor black cones, a few favor the new white cones.... nice to have a choice? 😕
to me, white cones are more visually appealing, however when I come across second hand white cone speakers, the cones are usually covered in fly specs & cockroach crap... not appealing...
Probably a stupid question but what do you mean with the new virgin white cones? The both the white and black MR13P-4's are the same right?
And also, I think I still have a problem. The lowest frequency of which the distance from the cone to the edge of the cabinet is half a wavelength is way too high, almost 3 kHz. But I'm probably calculating it wrong. How am I supposed to calculate it right?
Just so you know, the baffle is 27 cm wide with rounded edges.
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I recon it's just me calculating it wrong but if the baffle step doesn't work and can't get the additional 3 dB I might still have to use a bigger woofer which can go louder. Will cone breakup really be that bad of a problem with the 7" SEAS?
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