Hi everybody. This is my first post on this forum, but have been reading a lot here. A bit about myself before I get into the line arrays I have sitting here. I live in Las Vegas, NV, own my own maintenance business, and have built several different BFM cabs (THTs, Otop12s, Auto tubas, TLAHs, SLA center). I have acquired what are allegedly the original prototypes of the Pipedream speakers. Below is a copy and paste of a thread that didn't get much from the BFM site:
Okay there monsters are a hair under 8' tall and have 21 woofers and 33 tweeters. The woofers are Vifa m10md-39-08 models
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/vifa/m10md-39-08e.pdf
but these have an extra magnet assembly attached to the original magnet. The tweets are an as yet unknown brand/model.
These are supposedly the original Pipedreams built by Mark something or other (can't remember the name). However, the wires have never been connected to the terminals of one cab, and the other cab has never even had the terminals installed, tho I do have the terminals.
Any ideas or guesses on what these tweeters are? They are glued in place and there is no reasonably easy way to get them out to look for brand and model. The tweets are wired into banks of 4 in series it appears with the bottom-most tweet not wired at all. There are about 10 tweets not working as of now in each array, so I need to see what I can do about that. Pipedreams should have an electronic crossover but these have none so I will probably build a passive x-over for them to make life easier, but first I have to figure how the drivers are all wired and ohmage of them.
Whether it's all oddiophile hogwash or true, Pipedreams have been on a LOT of top 10 best speakers of all time lists. These also do not have the dual 18" stereo subs, so I will need to do something about that as well.
Please - Any comments or suggestions of what I should do with these?
Okay there monsters are a hair under 8' tall and have 21 woofers and 33 tweeters. The woofers are Vifa m10md-39-08 models
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/vifa/m10md-39-08e.pdf
but these have an extra magnet assembly attached to the original magnet. The tweets are an as yet unknown brand/model.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
These are supposedly the original Pipedreams built by Mark something or other (can't remember the name). However, the wires have never been connected to the terminals of one cab, and the other cab has never even had the terminals installed, tho I do have the terminals.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Any ideas or guesses on what these tweeters are? They are glued in place and there is no reasonably easy way to get them out to look for brand and model. The tweets are wired into banks of 4 in series it appears with the bottom-most tweet not wired at all. There are about 10 tweets not working as of now in each array, so I need to see what I can do about that. Pipedreams should have an electronic crossover but these have none so I will probably build a passive x-over for them to make life easier, but first I have to figure how the drivers are all wired and ohmage of them.
Whether it's all oddiophile hogwash or true, Pipedreams have been on a LOT of top 10 best speakers of all time lists. These also do not have the dual 18" stereo subs, so I will need to do something about that as well.
Please - Any comments or suggestions of what I should do with these?
I eventually dug out a tweeter and it is a Pioneer add64-56f ( http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=270-045 ). The tweeters appear to be missing the front plastic mounting piece (which is why they are all glued into the baffles
). The voice coil and domes are just held on with sticky felt (?). Looks like they were about $15 each back when they were available. One of the 8' baffles came loose from the pipe while relocating it and, of course, broke. Some of the tweeters are not working in each cab but as of now I do not know how many are actually bad. There is a source for the tweeters online and I ordered up 4 of them to replace some obvious bad tweets.
So, my friends, since I have to make new baffles anyway, should I make them the same as the originals: 33 tweets and 21 woofers? Freaking odd numbers to make a reasonable nominal impedance. 20 woofs would definitely be easier to work with (5x4) = 6.4 ohms, 30 tweets (6x5) can give me 6.667 ohms. 32 tweets = 4 or 16 ohms. 33 tweets (3x11) gives me a bastardly 2.18 or 29.333 ohms.
I bought 2- 1x8x8' pieces of red oak for the baffles and am considering using some kind of exotic veneer on the cabinets. I am totally open to suggestions on how to do these speakers.
IF these are the Pipedream prototypes as claimed, they would possibly be quite valuable in original configuration, but very impractical from an impedance/usage standpoint. For that matter they would be way more practical if I cut the damned things in half. Who needs 8' tall speakers -- and 54 drivers per cabinet??? They are total overkill for any sane person which is probably why I like them so much.
Also, what sub(s) to build to mate with these behemoths? They are *quite* efficient and LOUD. It may take a quad of Table Tubas to hang with these.
Again, I am open to ideas or criticism!
So, my friends, since I have to make new baffles anyway, should I make them the same as the originals: 33 tweets and 21 woofers? Freaking odd numbers to make a reasonable nominal impedance. 20 woofs would definitely be easier to work with (5x4) = 6.4 ohms, 30 tweets (6x5) can give me 6.667 ohms. 32 tweets = 4 or 16 ohms. 33 tweets (3x11) gives me a bastardly 2.18 or 29.333 ohms.
I bought 2- 1x8x8' pieces of red oak for the baffles and am considering using some kind of exotic veneer on the cabinets. I am totally open to suggestions on how to do these speakers.
IF these are the Pipedream prototypes as claimed, they would possibly be quite valuable in original configuration, but very impractical from an impedance/usage standpoint. For that matter they would be way more practical if I cut the damned things in half. Who needs 8' tall speakers -- and 54 drivers per cabinet??? They are total overkill for any sane person which is probably why I like them so much.
Also, what sub(s) to build to mate with these behemoths? They are *quite* efficient and LOUD. It may take a quad of Table Tubas to hang with these.
Again, I am open to ideas or criticism!
Woofer magnet structure, with addidtional magents attached to the originals:
More
Back of tweeter:
Front of dirty tweeter:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
More
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Back of tweeter:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Front of dirty tweeter:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'd go for it...
The wiring is problematic with an odd number like 21.
However, they may have been going for "frequency tapering". That makes the tall array acoustically more like a point source. That might explain the odd number.
OR it might have been all they could fit in a specific space...
...or power tapering
As far as 8' tall, that is not too tall for a line array.
There is a thread on here about the D.B. Keele line array - same as the one sold by Parts Express now. That will explain a ton about line array theory.
You may well find that in a sealed box, you can EQ the woofers quite nicely and get
very low, and not need a subwoofer... depends a bit on their specs, how low the Fs is...
The one standing up looks nice.
Also, if this is what they are/were, it explains a whole lot about where the name came from!
Please also look here: before there was a pipedream
These were just EQ'd and had substantial bass...
The wiring is problematic with an odd number like 21.
However, they may have been going for "frequency tapering". That makes the tall array acoustically more like a point source. That might explain the odd number.
OR it might have been all they could fit in a specific space...
...or power tapering
As far as 8' tall, that is not too tall for a line array.
There is a thread on here about the D.B. Keele line array - same as the one sold by Parts Express now. That will explain a ton about line array theory.
You may well find that in a sealed box, you can EQ the woofers quite nicely and get
very low, and not need a subwoofer... depends a bit on their specs, how low the Fs is...
The one standing up looks nice.
Also, if this is what they are/were, it explains a whole lot about where the name came from!
Please also look here: before there was a pipedream
These were just EQ'd and had substantial bass...
I am hesitant to alter the original layout only because if these are truly Pipedreams, they are potentially very valuable. For reference, Pipedream 21s origianlly sold for $85k. No, I don't think these are worth or will ever be worth $85k! If I cannot definitively prove they are Pipes, then my options are wide open. At this point I think I will use a MiniDSP and biamp them for ease of x-over setup. Plus with a DSP or 31 band EQ, these monsters should sound pretty good!
Just the value of these drivers is pretty insane IMO.
Just the value of these drivers is pretty insane IMO.
Not really- you don't have original W.E. prototypes there, pipedreams are nobody, from a collectibles standpoint. Any value in those is in the drivers. Those vifa midwoofs are entirely decent but not worth a lot each, but that's the biggest value I see here.
A non-working prototype even of an expensive speaker (which looked very different) without any solid verification (so-called "provenence") in the cosmetic condition that this one is in is unlikely to be particularly valuable except maybe to the person who made them or worked on them, and then perhaps not at all.
My opinion.
My opinion.
I do have one working somewhat. A couple groups of tweets are not working but the woofers are. I hooked up an infinity kappa car crossover and it sounds very clean. I am not real thrilled with the tweeter setup but they do sound pretty good.
test each tweeter with a small 1.5v battery, just a "tick" of clip leads to the terminals will tell you if they are dead or not.
Of course you can also put signal on them, and make sure you use a xover or cap to keep out low freqs... if they are in series one may be gone and the other good, shunt with a resistor equal to the impedance! 😀
Of course you can also put signal on them, and make sure you use a xover or cap to keep out low freqs... if they are in series one may be gone and the other good, shunt with a resistor equal to the impedance! 😀
Okay, getting back to these tweeters. I am not really impressed due to the following reasons: There is no faceplate to hold the domes/vc in the correct position, only sticky felt. The felt does not look good. The center to center spacing is still about 65 mm even with the face plates MIA.
The ctc spacing of the woofs is about 100-105 mm, and I have not yet mastered Jim Griffin's white papers to determine what x-over frequency this equates to for best results, but am thinking it will be around 2500-3000 hz.
Currently I am looking for tweeters with a tighter ctc spacing and still capable of a 2500 hz crossover. Cost is a strong consideration, but sq is more so. Any ideas?
The ctc spacing of the woofs is about 100-105 mm, and I have not yet mastered Jim Griffin's white papers to determine what x-over frequency this equates to for best results, but am thinking it will be around 2500-3000 hz.
Currently I am looking for tweeters with a tighter ctc spacing and still capable of a 2500 hz crossover. Cost is a strong consideration, but sq is more so. Any ideas?
I think ur worrying too much about these details...
there is likely to be some comb filtering effects, but so what?
the overall presentation will appear homogenous imo.
Clearly IF the spacing on the woofers equates to 2.5kHz to 3kHz, then the tweeters are closer together to start with. There are no tweeters with zero spacing, so at some frequency they are no longer acting like omnidirectional radiators.
Otoh, you could opt for a big ribbon for the highs, if this a big concern. Examples include the Carver Amazing, and some others... The B&G ribbons might fit the bill.
there is likely to be some comb filtering effects, but so what?
the overall presentation will appear homogenous imo.
Clearly IF the spacing on the woofers equates to 2.5kHz to 3kHz, then the tweeters are closer together to start with. There are no tweeters with zero spacing, so at some frequency they are no longer acting like omnidirectional radiators.
Otoh, you could opt for a big ribbon for the highs, if this a big concern. Examples include the Carver Amazing, and some others... The B&G ribbons might fit the bill.
Pipedreams Prototypes
Hello, I just came across this thread and as it's a few years old, it may be irrelevant now but here goes:
I designed those speakers in the pictures. They stood in my house in Las Vegas, circa 2003.
I designed them after I left Pipedreams. They were actually a prototype for the Scaena line arrays. The Scaenas used that very midrange and and the same magnet augmentation. The tweeter was a Tang-Band I chose as it had unusually low MMS (It was the pre-Neodymium days).
I'll shut up now but should you have any questions about these, please feel free to write me. It's nice to see they're still in action.
Sincerely,
Mark Porzilli
Melos Audio
Pipedreams Loudspeakers
Scaena Line Arrays
The Memory Player
Hello, I just came across this thread and as it's a few years old, it may be irrelevant now but here goes:
I designed those speakers in the pictures. They stood in my house in Las Vegas, circa 2003.
I designed them after I left Pipedreams. They were actually a prototype for the Scaena line arrays. The Scaenas used that very midrange and and the same magnet augmentation. The tweeter was a Tang-Band I chose as it had unusually low MMS (It was the pre-Neodymium days).
I'll shut up now but should you have any questions about these, please feel free to write me. It's nice to see they're still in action.
Sincerely,
Mark Porzilli
Melos Audio
Pipedreams Loudspeakers
Scaena Line Arrays
The Memory Player
Amazing what turns up on the web. 🙂
Thanks Mark for posting and letting us know the provenance of the speakers.
Thanks Mark for posting and letting us know the provenance of the speakers.
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