Hey there!
First of all, i would like to introduce myself!
My name is Ricardo and i live in Portugal and i have great interest in audio of course, also i've became a Dj 10 years ago and i've been interested to get into the diy audio, mostly and mainly speakers since my electronics are a bit fuzzy to get into the amp part (i guess crossovers will be an headache for me also :x) 🙂
Well... now the big question, i've been surfing the web looking for answers but i think it is best to get them from the experts since it'll probably make my life a lot easier! 😛
I've seen SPL values and RMS/PEAK values all over, yet ( since i want to 'build' a speaker system (PA) ) I got a little confused with some specs on each individual driver...
Eg. i've got 2 tweeters, X has 20w (rms) and SPL 109db and Y has 250w rms and an SPL of 107db (or even if it was 109db) (1w/1m), the same for the woofers... wich ones would sound louder?
Isn't it all the same (i mean for the SPL)? I think the only difference is the power consumption / speaker rupture limit, or does it have any influence in the output? Is it all about distortion also? Or long-play resistence? (playing for 2h won't burn and for 8 it'll burn/overheat? (or not))
Why am i asking this?
Well, my objective is to have a full PA system, 4 or 6 tops mid-range or 2 / 4 woofers, all connected to a matrix wich has the respective amplifiers connected to it, the cables and the connections i'll use will be SPEAKON or XLR..
I'm trying to give as much details as possible for you guys to know wich will be the best that suits my needs, since i can't get this quite well.
Thank you!
Ricardo!
First of all, i would like to introduce myself!
My name is Ricardo and i live in Portugal and i have great interest in audio of course, also i've became a Dj 10 years ago and i've been interested to get into the diy audio, mostly and mainly speakers since my electronics are a bit fuzzy to get into the amp part (i guess crossovers will be an headache for me also :x) 🙂
Well... now the big question, i've been surfing the web looking for answers but i think it is best to get them from the experts since it'll probably make my life a lot easier! 😛
I've seen SPL values and RMS/PEAK values all over, yet ( since i want to 'build' a speaker system (PA) ) I got a little confused with some specs on each individual driver...
Eg. i've got 2 tweeters, X has 20w (rms) and SPL 109db and Y has 250w rms and an SPL of 107db (or even if it was 109db) (1w/1m), the same for the woofers... wich ones would sound louder?
Isn't it all the same (i mean for the SPL)? I think the only difference is the power consumption / speaker rupture limit, or does it have any influence in the output? Is it all about distortion also? Or long-play resistence? (playing for 2h won't burn and for 8 it'll burn/overheat? (or not))
Why am i asking this?
Well, my objective is to have a full PA system, 4 or 6 tops mid-range or 2 / 4 woofers, all connected to a matrix wich has the respective amplifiers connected to it, the cables and the connections i'll use will be SPEAKON or XLR..
I'm trying to give as much details as possible for you guys to know wich will be the best that suits my needs, since i can't get this quite well.
Thank you!
Ricardo!
Hi Ricardo! Well first off, do you have more than enough amp to power the "y" tweeters/speakers?It is really important to properly power (tweeters/compression drivers),they tend to die quickly with clipped input power. X tweeter could theoretically achieve 122 dB with 20 w/rms and Y could do around 132.2 dB with 250 w/rms. A tenfold increase input power will yield a 10 dB output sound increase.
109 dB @ 1w
119 dB @ 10w
129 dB @ 100w
132 dB @ 200w ,notice how going from 100w-200w only gets u 3 dB
132.2db @ 250w
This sounds like an awesome tweeter! What kind of DSP unit do you have to protect all the speakers? Drive Racks work great!
I usually run twice as many subs as mid/highs seeing as M/H are usually more efficient and percieved more easily.
If you run those tweeters @ what they're rated with unclipped power = no prob
if you run them @ rated power with too much clipping= dead tweeter.
Clipping an amp drives the output power rating way up, eg. 3 dB = twice the output, so your "250 watt" tweeter amp could be putting out 500 watts of clipped distorted sound to those tweets,they won't last long.
Hope this helps,good luck!
109 dB @ 1w
119 dB @ 10w
129 dB @ 100w
132 dB @ 200w ,notice how going from 100w-200w only gets u 3 dB
132.2db @ 250w
This sounds like an awesome tweeter! What kind of DSP unit do you have to protect all the speakers? Drive Racks work great!
I usually run twice as many subs as mid/highs seeing as M/H are usually more efficient and percieved more easily.
If you run those tweeters @ what they're rated with unclipped power = no prob
if you run them @ rated power with too much clipping= dead tweeter.
Clipping an amp drives the output power rating way up, eg. 3 dB = twice the output, so your "250 watt" tweeter amp could be putting out 500 watts of clipped distorted sound to those tweets,they won't last long.
Hope this helps,good luck!
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Each top will have: 1 HF Tweeter and 1 Low / Midrange Woofer .
Speakers:
Tweeters
[ Monacor MHD 152 ]
Specs:
SPL: 105 db (1w1m)
Freq. Range: 2-20khz
Watts(rms/peak) : 75/100
OR
[ Eminence APT150 ]
Specs:
SPL: 105 db (1w1m)
Freq. Range: 2-20khz
Watts(rms/peak) : 45 / NA @ 3.5khz
85 / NA @ 5 khz
Tweeter price diference : €30 (aprox. $USD20)
Woofer:
[ EMINENCE THE WIZARD-8 ]
Specs:
SPL: 103 db (1w1m)
Freq. Range: 70hz - 5Khz
Watts(rms/peak) : 75/150
CrossOver Unit:
Dayton XO2W-3.5K 2-Way Crossover 3,500 Hz Wich you can check it out at this website.
----------------------------------------------------
Now, the speakers with the specs above are supposed to be the 4 / 6 tops that i want to "build", wich will have (for each pair) a 18'' woofer cabinet that goes from 25Hz to 2Khz (Eminence Sigma Pro 18'')
Possibly for the woofer cabinet i'll have a high pass filter to avoid frequency collision from the woofer / Top speaker.
I've been reading about DSP units, are those supposed to limit the speaker input power to avoid "killing" them? (also, does the DSP receive the signal from an output and then "sends" it to it's connected amplifiers/speakers?)
As you can see i'm purely newbie here.. and i'm just going to try something.
In this case, wich tweeter would you choose?
I guess if using the first one, you would have a 150w (rms) speaker with an SPL of 105 db 1w/1m right?
Would this play realllly loud?
Now the power up, what would i need to power up these speakers? An amplifier (or DSP unit) with 300w ? or 150w per channel?
I know this sounds a bit confusing ( due to my lack of english knowledge ), but i'm trying to make something really loud with the lowest budget possible, and of course.. something that doesn't fry at all 😀, and while doing this i'm also trying to learn how to make really poweful speakers with less power consumption.
When people talk about power (watts) claming that it is associated with "loudness" are they wrong?
Regards!
Top Shelf, thanks! 🙂
Each top will have: 1 HF Tweeter and 1 Low / Midrange Woofer .
Speakers:
Tweeters
[ Monacor MHD 152 ]
Specs:
SPL: 105 db (1w1m)
Freq. Range: 2-20khz
Watts(rms/peak) : 75/100
OR
[ Eminence APT150 ]
Specs:
SPL: 105 db (1w1m)
Freq. Range: 2-20khz
Watts(rms/peak) : 45 / NA @ 3.5khz
85 / NA @ 5 khz
Tweeter price diference : €30 (aprox. $USD20)
Woofer:
[ EMINENCE THE WIZARD-8 ]
Specs:
SPL: 103 db (1w1m)
Freq. Range: 70hz - 5Khz
Watts(rms/peak) : 75/150
CrossOver Unit:
Dayton XO2W-3.5K 2-Way Crossover 3,500 Hz Wich you can check it out at this website.
----------------------------------------------------
Now, the speakers with the specs above are supposed to be the 4 / 6 tops that i want to "build", wich will have (for each pair) a 18'' woofer cabinet that goes from 25Hz to 2Khz (Eminence Sigma Pro 18'')
Possibly for the woofer cabinet i'll have a high pass filter to avoid frequency collision from the woofer / Top speaker.
I've been reading about DSP units, are those supposed to limit the speaker input power to avoid "killing" them? (also, does the DSP receive the signal from an output and then "sends" it to it's connected amplifiers/speakers?)
As you can see i'm purely newbie here.. and i'm just going to try something.
In this case, wich tweeter would you choose?
I guess if using the first one, you would have a 150w (rms) speaker with an SPL of 105 db 1w/1m right?
Would this play realllly loud?
Now the power up, what would i need to power up these speakers? An amplifier (or DSP unit) with 300w ? or 150w per channel?
I know this sounds a bit confusing ( due to my lack of english knowledge ), but i'm trying to make something really loud with the lowest budget possible, and of course.. something that doesn't fry at all 😀, and while doing this i'm also trying to learn how to make really poweful speakers with less power consumption.
When people talk about power (watts) claming that it is associated with "loudness" are they wrong?
Regards!
Top Shelf, thanks! 🙂
Well, I have a couple of the Eminence titanium compression drivers (PSD2002?) on JBL horns. The horns are vintage & round with acoustic lenses, which aren't something you see much these days. If I was buying new horns, I'd consider the Selenium round horn, since it should sound good, although coverage off-axis will be limited. DIYing an acoustic lens wouldn't be that hard, though... sheet metal or PC board stock should work. Asking around local sound companies and music rental stores, you may be able to score 1" horns with blown or missing compression drivers locally for next to nothing. (Replacement diaphragms alone for JBL drivers cost more than the complete Eminence driver.)
I use an automobile taillamp bulb with both filaments wired in series for protection. Also, the crossover is set for 8 ohms, but the driver is 16 ohms, so I have a 10 watt or so 15 ohm resistor in parallel which hopefully makes for a more resistive load, and provides a tactile indication of the power going to the tweeter. The lamp appears to work as protection: when a sketchy "musician" unexpectedly went nuts on a Kaos pad and created painfully loud screeches, the lamps lit up and the tweeters survived. Interior automobile lamps ("dome lights") may be the more correct choice. However, I did find a post from someone who claimed that Yorkville used an 1156 bulb as tweeter protection in the Elite EX-401. Crossovers are Altec N1209-8A (something like that), woofer is the 15" Eminence cast-frame that has an 80 oz magnet and is about 99 dB/1w/1m. (Delta Pro 15?) I power them with about 200 to 450 watts, and use the limit LEDs on the amp to know when it's loud enough. None have died yet.
The DSP is a Behringer Ultradrive; for what it does it's a bargain. It's got more adjustments and tweaks than I know what to do with. I think I have the compressor/limiters set for a long release, so it behaves something like an AGC rather than compressing hard which can give a pumping effect.
With 8" mid/woofers, I'd be tempted to try a line source, maybe WWTWW (but vertical), with a slot tweeter. That may give a smoother radiation pattern horizontally than is possible from several cabinets arranged at an angle.
As for the power thing... voice coil size and cooling counts for a lot for long-term use. Maybe everything, except for mechanical damage. Bigger voice coils spread the power over more surface area, and have more surface to radiate to the magnet structure and pole piece. Power ratings are not an exact thing. The dynamic range and spectrum of the music is a big variable. Some manufacturers go by a standardized test with specified noise spectrums and stuff. Some supplement that by playing heavy metal very loud as a practical test. Check out various pro audio speaker manufacturer websites... some have good papers explaining power ratings. Some makers tell you what drivers are used in their boxes, so you can almost reverse engineer them, or at least see how the system rating compares with the driver specs. There's a continuum of quality between "white-van" carpeted "pro" speakers and freaking expensive stuff like JBL or Stage Accompany. The trick is to figure out how much compromise you can afford.
Finally, don't completely rule out buying new speakers from a manufacturer like Behringer... it may not be possible to build anything as good for less money. Name-brand stuff has resale value too. (yes, even Behringer.)
I use an automobile taillamp bulb with both filaments wired in series for protection. Also, the crossover is set for 8 ohms, but the driver is 16 ohms, so I have a 10 watt or so 15 ohm resistor in parallel which hopefully makes for a more resistive load, and provides a tactile indication of the power going to the tweeter. The lamp appears to work as protection: when a sketchy "musician" unexpectedly went nuts on a Kaos pad and created painfully loud screeches, the lamps lit up and the tweeters survived. Interior automobile lamps ("dome lights") may be the more correct choice. However, I did find a post from someone who claimed that Yorkville used an 1156 bulb as tweeter protection in the Elite EX-401. Crossovers are Altec N1209-8A (something like that), woofer is the 15" Eminence cast-frame that has an 80 oz magnet and is about 99 dB/1w/1m. (Delta Pro 15?) I power them with about 200 to 450 watts, and use the limit LEDs on the amp to know when it's loud enough. None have died yet.
The DSP is a Behringer Ultradrive; for what it does it's a bargain. It's got more adjustments and tweaks than I know what to do with. I think I have the compressor/limiters set for a long release, so it behaves something like an AGC rather than compressing hard which can give a pumping effect.
With 8" mid/woofers, I'd be tempted to try a line source, maybe WWTWW (but vertical), with a slot tweeter. That may give a smoother radiation pattern horizontally than is possible from several cabinets arranged at an angle.
As for the power thing... voice coil size and cooling counts for a lot for long-term use. Maybe everything, except for mechanical damage. Bigger voice coils spread the power over more surface area, and have more surface to radiate to the magnet structure and pole piece. Power ratings are not an exact thing. The dynamic range and spectrum of the music is a big variable. Some manufacturers go by a standardized test with specified noise spectrums and stuff. Some supplement that by playing heavy metal very loud as a practical test. Check out various pro audio speaker manufacturer websites... some have good papers explaining power ratings. Some makers tell you what drivers are used in their boxes, so you can almost reverse engineer them, or at least see how the system rating compares with the driver specs. There's a continuum of quality between "white-van" carpeted "pro" speakers and freaking expensive stuff like JBL or Stage Accompany. The trick is to figure out how much compromise you can afford.
Finally, don't completely rule out buying new speakers from a manufacturer like Behringer... it may not be possible to build anything as good for less money. Name-brand stuff has resale value too. (yes, even Behringer.)
About the sub to mid/high crossover. I've always done the "normal" thing and used the same frequency and slope for sub low pass and mid/hi high pass filters. However, some dance music sound systems like to have the mid/high boxes run full-range (or at least as low as the woofers will allow). I'm not sure if this adds useful bass punch, or if it is a legacy of the Paradise Garage. There, the main speakers ran full-range, but there were subwoofers and tweeter arrays, and each (full-range, bass, and supertweeters) could be controlled separately by the DJ using a specially made "crossover". Paradise Garage Lighting and Sound System
http://www.deepattitude.com/images/pdf/Alan Fierstein and Richard Long paper AES.pdf
http://www.deepattitude.com/images/pdf/Alan Fierstein and Richard Long paper AES.pdf
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Can I get a response from a moderator on why when I log in for the express purpose of replying to a post, after writing said post and trying to send do I get the "you are not logged in" message.Is there a time limit on writing a post? I have lost several long winded replies due to this problem. Namely to this O.P.
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Good idea on the bulb Dangus, the behringer dcx 24/96 is a great unit with lots of features x-over (6-48 db),e.q. (dynamic and parametric), delay ( for horn subs), and limiter( to save your speakers) and its got 2 inputs and 6 out for tri-amping or bi-amping.You can get them used for 175- 250.
The monocor will do 121 db @ 75 wrms.
The eminance will do 126-ish db but it only has a 3" v.c. I would look for something with a 4" v.c. for long term vc heating capabilities for DJ purposes and model the box to get down into the low 30hz area.
I wouldn't recommend running your mains down into the sub freq. range because of phasing/ cancellation problems.
If you're gonna get a dcx then get amps that have 1.5 -2 times the RMS power handling of your speakers, more head room less distortion/clipping.
Drive power in volts from your amp, applied to a varying impedance( your speakers) = wattage
Good luck, Jeremy
The monocor will do 121 db @ 75 wrms.
The eminance will do 126-ish db but it only has a 3" v.c. I would look for something with a 4" v.c. for long term vc heating capabilities for DJ purposes and model the box to get down into the low 30hz area.
I wouldn't recommend running your mains down into the sub freq. range because of phasing/ cancellation problems.
If you're gonna get a dcx then get amps that have 1.5 -2 times the RMS power handling of your speakers, more head room less distortion/clipping.
Drive power in volts from your amp, applied to a varying impedance( your speakers) = wattage
Good luck, Jeremy
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