Could someone help with some questions & offer some experienced advice to an out of his depth newbie with high end dreams.
First some background
The room:- 6mx4mx3m high (20ftx13ftx9.75ft high) Walls-stone & brick. Floor- well reinforced suspended wood with heavy carpeting. Room well furnished.
Equipment & speaker position along 4m wall opposite a large bay window.
Current & near future set-up:-a developing set of Aleph 4 monoblocks & a three channel Aleph 5 for future H.T.. Audio Alchemy CD. Garrard/SME Turntable & a large widescreen CRT. Current speakers old Wharfedales Model 30/10 3way 12”bass driver 3”mid still sound reasonable.
Musical tastes:- most anything except classical & rap. Particular liking for solo vocalists.
My aim is a high end system that I can only afford via DIY.
Best speakers heard to date Wilson Benesch ACT 1.
Priority in this upgrade must go to the music at the expense of the H.T.
Much forum & web browsing has led me to the plans/kits at www.audiocomponents.nl & in particular the Vifa Premium 33 or 22 with the possibility of the Premium or Eden centres & surrounds as HT to match tonal qualities.
Feedback found on this forum & web seems good & they are a tried & tested design & more importantly tried & tested crossovers (a bit of the design I haven’t got to grips with yet).
This leaves me needing help & advice to some questions
1)Is my above reasoning sound & would 33 or 22 be better for my room size & why?
2) Would centralising the tweeter & port on the baffle make a significant difference to sound quality as it would improve SAF factor considerably?
3) What would be effect of reducing overall height by 100mm (4”) if cabinet volume was kept same by increasing front to back dimension?
4) Would there be added benefits in using a teardrop cabinet shape?
5) Depending on final choices there are three different tweeters in use across these ranges (All drivers listed in the table below.) Could the surround/centre tweeters be changed & xovers adjusted to compensate?
6) The 33’s/22’s would be approx 600mm clear of sides of CRT is it likely these will need shielding?
Model Bass Mid-Bass Tweeter Premium 33 PL18WO-09/08 PL18WO-09/08 D2905/9500
Premium 22 PLW14/232/8 PLW14/232/8 XT 300 ring
Premium Centre PLW14/232/8 PLW14/232/8 XT 300S ring
Eden Centre 1 M13SG-09/08 M13SG-09/08 D26SG-05/06
Eden Centre 2 C11SG-05/06 C11SG-05/06 D26NC-05/06
Eden Surround 1(lge) M13SG-09/08 D26SG-05/06
Eden Surround 2(small) C11SG-05/06 D26NC-05/06
Sorry for the long post but needed it off my chest & better to sought problems in advance.
Hope someone can spare the time & questions aren’t too stupid.
TimF
First some background Current & near future set-up:-This leaves me needing help & advice to some questions Model Bass Mid-Bass Tweeter
First some background
The room:- 6mx4mx3m high (20ftx13ftx9.75ft high) Walls-stone & brick. Floor- well reinforced suspended wood with heavy carpeting. Room well furnished.
Equipment & speaker position along 4m wall opposite a large bay window.
Current & near future set-up:-a developing set of Aleph 4 monoblocks & a three channel Aleph 5 for future H.T.. Audio Alchemy CD. Garrard/SME Turntable & a large widescreen CRT. Current speakers old Wharfedales Model 30/10 3way 12”bass driver 3”mid still sound reasonable.
Musical tastes:- most anything except classical & rap. Particular liking for solo vocalists.
My aim is a high end system that I can only afford via DIY.
Best speakers heard to date Wilson Benesch ACT 1.
Priority in this upgrade must go to the music at the expense of the H.T.
Much forum & web browsing has led me to the plans/kits at www.audiocomponents.nl & in particular the Vifa Premium 33 or 22 with the possibility of the Premium or Eden centres & surrounds as HT to match tonal qualities.
Feedback found on this forum & web seems good & they are a tried & tested design & more importantly tried & tested crossovers (a bit of the design I haven’t got to grips with yet).
This leaves me needing help & advice to some questions
1)Is my above reasoning sound & would 33 or 22 be better for my room size & why?
2) Would centralising the tweeter & port on the baffle make a significant difference to sound quality as it would improve SAF factor considerably?
3) What would be effect of reducing overall height by 100mm (4”) if cabinet volume was kept same by increasing front to back dimension?
4) Would there be added benefits in using a teardrop cabinet shape?
5) Depending on final choices there are three different tweeters in use across these ranges (All drivers listed in the table below.) Could the surround/centre tweeters be changed & xovers adjusted to compensate?
6) The 33’s/22’s would be approx 600mm clear of sides of CRT is it likely these will need shielding?
Model Bass Mid-Bass Tweeter Premium 33 PL18WO-09/08 PL18WO-09/08 D2905/9500
Premium 22 PLW14/232/8 PLW14/232/8 XT 300 ring
Premium Centre PLW14/232/8 PLW14/232/8 XT 300S ring
Eden Centre 1 M13SG-09/08 M13SG-09/08 D26SG-05/06
Eden Centre 2 C11SG-05/06 C11SG-05/06 D26NC-05/06
Eden Surround 1(lge) M13SG-09/08 D26SG-05/06
Eden Surround 2(small) C11SG-05/06 D26NC-05/06
Sorry for the long post but needed it off my chest & better to sought problems in advance.
Hope someone can spare the time & questions aren’t too stupid.
TimF
First some background Current & near future set-up:-This leaves me needing help & advice to some questions Model Bass Mid-Bass Tweeter
Hi Tim
I have worked on Vifa drivers over the years, so I am quite familiar with some of them. As for Eden, I am afraid I am not much help because I've never worked on them.
The Vifa PL18WO-09/08 is the top of the line 6 1/2" Woofer. It is neutral, has a smooth response, extends well into the upper mids without much cone breakup, and can go down pretty deep. In a room of your dimensions, the Premium 33, 2 units of 6 1/2" plus 1 tweeter would give you a nice punch in the lower regions. I would choose this over the Premium 22, which is a 5" mid-woofer.
For the HF, you may want to consider the premium line tweeter PL27TG35. This is a 1" silk dome. Not easy to use, but if you can get it to run properly, well worth the effort. The other is also a 1" but with an aluminum alloy diaphragm - D25AG-35-06. Much easier to work on - an excellent tweeter as well. For HT, I would keep to the same tweeter for the center and main.
Regards
Mike
I have worked on Vifa drivers over the years, so I am quite familiar with some of them. As for Eden, I am afraid I am not much help because I've never worked on them.
The Vifa PL18WO-09/08 is the top of the line 6 1/2" Woofer. It is neutral, has a smooth response, extends well into the upper mids without much cone breakup, and can go down pretty deep. In a room of your dimensions, the Premium 33, 2 units of 6 1/2" plus 1 tweeter would give you a nice punch in the lower regions. I would choose this over the Premium 22, which is a 5" mid-woofer.
For the HF, you may want to consider the premium line tweeter PL27TG35. This is a 1" silk dome. Not easy to use, but if you can get it to run properly, well worth the effort. The other is also a 1" but with an aluminum alloy diaphragm - D25AG-35-06. Much easier to work on - an excellent tweeter as well. For HT, I would keep to the same tweeter for the center and main.
Regards
Mike
1)Is my above reasoning sound & would 33 or 22 be better for my room size & why?
33 for the front atleast, 33 for all 4 channels is possible.
2) Would centralising the tweeter & port on the baffle make a significant difference to sound quality as it would improve SAF factor considerably?
for which model. for the center there are effectively 2 SAF options.
1. a small MT (using a 3-4" woofer and a tweeter flanked by 2 6" woofers. this means you have to deal with a bit more complicated cabinetery and teh cabniet is a bit bigger about 30L internal
2. 2 5" woofers squeezed together with the tweeter (preferable one with a very small flange like Vifa's D26NC) located between but above the 2 woofers.
3) What would be effect of reducing overall height by 100mm (4”) if cabinet volume was kept same by increasing front to back dimension?
depends on your listening position. it should be between mid and tweeter. i prefer to listen in line with mid.
4) Would there be added benefits in using a teardrop cabinet shape?
many threads on this on this forum. check out www.norh.com and ask Michela Barnes on a more technical and elaborate expalnation but in short you remove parallel walls, solve compression problems, etc..
5) Depending on final choices there are three different tweeters in use across these ranges (All drivers listed in the table below.) Could the surround/centre tweeters be changed & xovers adjusted to compensate?
i'd work from center outwards. the center is the most important speaker and oten the most diffcult to build as it often needs to be sheilded etc... first choose what you are going to use for center and then work outwards (L-R and then rears).
6) The 33’s/22’s would be approx 600mm clear of sides of CRT is it likely these will need shielding?
nope. you can get as close as 300mm.
33 for the front atleast, 33 for all 4 channels is possible.
2) Would centralising the tweeter & port on the baffle make a significant difference to sound quality as it would improve SAF factor considerably?
for which model. for the center there are effectively 2 SAF options.
1. a small MT (using a 3-4" woofer and a tweeter flanked by 2 6" woofers. this means you have to deal with a bit more complicated cabinetery and teh cabniet is a bit bigger about 30L internal
2. 2 5" woofers squeezed together with the tweeter (preferable one with a very small flange like Vifa's D26NC) located between but above the 2 woofers.
3) What would be effect of reducing overall height by 100mm (4”) if cabinet volume was kept same by increasing front to back dimension?
depends on your listening position. it should be between mid and tweeter. i prefer to listen in line with mid.
4) Would there be added benefits in using a teardrop cabinet shape?
many threads on this on this forum. check out www.norh.com and ask Michela Barnes on a more technical and elaborate expalnation but in short you remove parallel walls, solve compression problems, etc..
5) Depending on final choices there are three different tweeters in use across these ranges (All drivers listed in the table below.) Could the surround/centre tweeters be changed & xovers adjusted to compensate?
i'd work from center outwards. the center is the most important speaker and oten the most diffcult to build as it often needs to be sheilded etc... first choose what you are going to use for center and then work outwards (L-R and then rears).
6) The 33’s/22’s would be approx 600mm clear of sides of CRT is it likely these will need shielding?
nope. you can get as close as 300mm.
the 22XT and premium center use the smae drivers. if you can make the center cabinet a bit different you can manage to use these as you system
center: premium center; move port to rear, bring woofer as close together and locate tweeter above (cabinet get a little taller)
front, rear, surounds: premium 22XT
center: premium center; move port to rear, bring woofer as close together and locate tweeter above (cabinet get a little taller)
front, rear, surounds: premium 22XT
MCP - the Eden’s use vifa drivers also but from a lower range I believe.
What do you mean by PL27TG35 is not easy to use?
The problem is that whilst I am capable & happy to change parts
allday long I don’t fully understand the effects the changes are likely to have.
If I was to try the PL27 tweeter could you suggest a starting point
for making changes & how big a change in value to try first.
Below is link to x-over diagram for Premium 33 with Scan Speak D2905/9500tweeter. (I hope.)
Xover of Premium 33 with the SS2905/9500 tweeter
X-over for Premium Centre
Also can someone tell me what optional bit in the 33 diagram is for?
I’m trying to get to grips with this X-over thing.
Thanks all for your patience.
What do you mean by PL27TG35 is not easy to use?
The problem is that whilst I am capable & happy to change parts
allday long I don’t fully understand the effects the changes are likely to have.
If I was to try the PL27 tweeter could you suggest a starting point
for making changes & how big a change in value to try first.
Below is link to x-over diagram for Premium 33 with Scan Speak D2905/9500tweeter. (I hope.)
Xover of Premium 33 with the SS2905/9500 tweeter
X-over for Premium Centre
Also can someone tell me what optional bit in the 33 diagram is for?
I’m trying to get to grips with this X-over thing.
Thanks all for your patience.
Navin
Sorry posting wasn’t that clear, but bear with me as you are responsible for all these questions, as it was your glowing recommendation to someone else on this forum that took me to these designs in the first place.
My first priority is good music, if I must compromise & I guess I must then the HT will be where the compromise is.
Sadly my room is not a dedicated listening room so rear surrounds will have to be smallish & OK for wall mounting.
When I asked about centralising the tweeters & ports I mean’t on the towers (I would keep the same tweeter to driver & port to driver centres) & would still appreciate your opinion on this.
Your 2nd suggestion for the centre (2 x 5”woofers & tweeter above is going to get the best SAF rating. Would sculpting a segment out of a larger tweeter flange to get it close to the woofers be OK & would changing driver positions require Xover changes. I haven’t mastered posting an image yet but have posted some links to the Xover circuits for the 33’s & Premium centre.
In Q4 I said teardrop cabinet shape again with hinsight not very clear on my part, I was meaning along the lines of Sonus Faber & Wilson Benesch but your link & follow ups have answered the question (will enjoy the cabinetry)
Finally if I was to use D2905/9500 for centre to match 33’s or XT300’s in the 33,s to match the centre would Xover mods be limited to changing some component values or would it mean a complete redesign?
Or have I completly missunderstood what you are saying?
TimF
Sorry posting wasn’t that clear, but bear with me as you are responsible for all these questions, as it was your glowing recommendation to someone else on this forum that took me to these designs in the first place.
My first priority is good music, if I must compromise & I guess I must then the HT will be where the compromise is.
Sadly my room is not a dedicated listening room so rear surrounds will have to be smallish & OK for wall mounting.
When I asked about centralising the tweeters & ports I mean’t on the towers (I would keep the same tweeter to driver & port to driver centres) & would still appreciate your opinion on this.
Your 2nd suggestion for the centre (2 x 5”woofers & tweeter above is going to get the best SAF rating. Would sculpting a segment out of a larger tweeter flange to get it close to the woofers be OK & would changing driver positions require Xover changes. I haven’t mastered posting an image yet but have posted some links to the Xover circuits for the 33’s & Premium centre.
In Q4 I said teardrop cabinet shape again with hinsight not very clear on my part, I was meaning along the lines of Sonus Faber & Wilson Benesch but your link & follow ups have answered the question (will enjoy the cabinetry)
Finally if I was to use D2905/9500 for centre to match 33’s or XT300’s in the 33,s to match the centre would Xover mods be limited to changing some component values or would it mean a complete redesign?
Or have I completly missunderstood what you are saying?
TimF
Tim
The main issue with the PL27 tweeter is that it resonates easily.
Even with 2nd order crossovers, Vifa recommends a notch filter for this tweeter.
I am not familiar with the D2905/9500 but since you mentioned it is a Scanspeak, I checked it out. It seems to be very similar to the PL27, probably better. Since Scanspeak is reputed to be superior than Vifa, perhaps it is better to stick to the D2905.
At the "OPTIONS" on the Premium 33 network, the string of components consisting of L,C,R (inductors, capacitors and resistors) is probably a notch filter for the D2905. There is also another filter, a capacitor with resistor. I believe that is for phase compensation. By having it at the input side, I can assume that it is meant as a general "compensation" network.
Mike
The main issue with the PL27 tweeter is that it resonates easily.
Even with 2nd order crossovers, Vifa recommends a notch filter for this tweeter.
I am not familiar with the D2905/9500 but since you mentioned it is a Scanspeak, I checked it out. It seems to be very similar to the PL27, probably better. Since Scanspeak is reputed to be superior than Vifa, perhaps it is better to stick to the D2905.
At the "OPTIONS" on the Premium 33 network, the string of components consisting of L,C,R (inductors, capacitors and resistors) is probably a notch filter for the D2905. There is also another filter, a capacitor with resistor. I believe that is for phase compensation. By having it at the input side, I can assume that it is meant as a general "compensation" network.
Mike
Hi tim
The extra network in the premium is a zobel network, you only need it when you conect it to a tube-amp. I can't say i can recoment the premium 33 in a smal room as yours. I made these loudspeakers about 2 years ago and they are collecting dust in the attic now, the problem was that they are quite boomy and i could not get them quiet. I tryed to close the port, filled up the lower compartement etc. etc. In the end i disconnected the lower woofer and even then they stayed rather boomy. My room is about the same size as yours and i think that the premium 22 would be a beter choice. I hope i saved you from a fiasco, because they are rather expensive.
Tjeb
The extra network in the premium is a zobel network, you only need it when you conect it to a tube-amp. I can't say i can recoment the premium 33 in a smal room as yours. I made these loudspeakers about 2 years ago and they are collecting dust in the attic now, the problem was that they are quite boomy and i could not get them quiet. I tryed to close the port, filled up the lower compartement etc. etc. In the end i disconnected the lower woofer and even then they stayed rather boomy. My room is about the same size as yours and i think that the premium 22 would be a beter choice. I hope i saved you from a fiasco, because they are rather expensive.
Tjeb
the optional ckt is anothc filter. you can forget it for now. i'd have to calculate teh nothc freq to see why they included it.
let me get this right.
center MTM type
front MMT type
rear MT type.
where M means midwoofer and T is tweeter.
this is very standard config.
it makes a lot os sense to use the same drivers across all channels.
I have no exp with the ring radiators so ican say how they wi compare with the 9500s. i have had good exp. with all the tweeters i have used so far. they include the 9900, 9500, mdt33, D25AG35, D27TG45, D26NC (car), and a Vifa TC series that I dont remember the model number of. they all are based on different budgets.
I can see a lot of options for you. the most common will be.
center: 2 x sheilded 5 or 6" woofers and 1 tweeter
front 2.5 way using same or very similar drivers as above
rear 2 way using same drivers as above.
for the rear you might need to play with the baffle step compensation ckt. the reason being is that most baffle step comp. ckts are designed for free standing or stand mounted speakers and speakers that are close to the wall. what this means is that the L and R can be smaller (which is good) for a speaker that is surface mounted on the wall and better still if you can flush mount the rear speakers (in wall) you can eliminate the baffle step ckt altogether.
i dont like the baffle step ckts. the large L it requires deadens the sound. the large R cant help either (damping factor?). I'd rather have a surrund with 2 4.5" woofers than 1 6" (same box volume).
if you can work this out i would sugest this:
center: 2 x PL14 cm woofers with either the XT or 9500 MTM
front: same drivers, non sheided, MMT config.
rear: same drivers (2x PL14 + tweeeter) with a small deep box one woofer face rear. sort of like a MT with a second woofer in the rear for baffle step comp.
if you use a well integrated sub (12" from Shiva etc..) you can compensate for the difference in bass capability between the PL 18cm and 14cm woofers.
let me get this right.
center MTM type
front MMT type
rear MT type.
where M means midwoofer and T is tweeter.
this is very standard config.
it makes a lot os sense to use the same drivers across all channels.
I have no exp with the ring radiators so ican say how they wi compare with the 9500s. i have had good exp. with all the tweeters i have used so far. they include the 9900, 9500, mdt33, D25AG35, D27TG45, D26NC (car), and a Vifa TC series that I dont remember the model number of. they all are based on different budgets.
I can see a lot of options for you. the most common will be.
center: 2 x sheilded 5 or 6" woofers and 1 tweeter
front 2.5 way using same or very similar drivers as above
rear 2 way using same drivers as above.
for the rear you might need to play with the baffle step compensation ckt. the reason being is that most baffle step comp. ckts are designed for free standing or stand mounted speakers and speakers that are close to the wall. what this means is that the L and R can be smaller (which is good) for a speaker that is surface mounted on the wall and better still if you can flush mount the rear speakers (in wall) you can eliminate the baffle step ckt altogether.
i dont like the baffle step ckts. the large L it requires deadens the sound. the large R cant help either (damping factor?). I'd rather have a surrund with 2 4.5" woofers than 1 6" (same box volume).
if you can work this out i would sugest this:
center: 2 x PL14 cm woofers with either the XT or 9500 MTM
front: same drivers, non sheided, MMT config.
rear: same drivers (2x PL14 + tweeeter) with a small deep box one woofer face rear. sort of like a MT with a second woofer in the rear for baffle step comp.
if you use a well integrated sub (12" from Shiva etc..) you can compensate for the difference in bass capability between the PL 18cm and 14cm woofers.
An alternative design...
you might want to look into is Wayne J's Eros design. It uses 2 PL18s and a 9500 just like the premium 33, but the configuration is MTM, not TMM, and the cross over is also simpler - hence cheaper. The box tuning is a bit lower - also bigger box. But no sub is needed. For medium - large size room.
I built it. It's very dynamic & musical, easy to drive. It replaced a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.3 MkII.
Good luck in your search.
you might want to look into is Wayne J's Eros design. It uses 2 PL18s and a 9500 just like the premium 33, but the configuration is MTM, not TMM, and the cross over is also simpler - hence cheaper. The box tuning is a bit lower - also bigger box. But no sub is needed. For medium - large size room.
I built it. It's very dynamic & musical, easy to drive. It replaced a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.3 MkII.
Good luck in your search.
Yes, that's the ultimate size. The speakers are placed in the family room (13x21) along the short wall, 5.7' from the front (back?) wall, 3.5' from the side walls, 8' to the listening couch. I use the Cardas' method of speaker placement. Excellent soundstage and imaging.
There are very little in-room bass reinforcement. Bass is tight, deep and full. I'm sure the port placement near the floor helps.
There are very little in-room bass reinforcement. Bass is tight, deep and full. I'm sure the port placement near the floor helps.
If you're interested in a surround setup around the PL18, there is also couple of TM designs using the PL18 and Seas T25 in the DIY 2K cross over contest. One entry does not fully compensate for baffle step loss, which means it's suitable for close-to-the-wall mounting.
I also agree with a poster above that the PL18 is a very good woofer, especially considering its price.
Check Planet10's website for such a discussion.
I also agree with a poster above that the PL18 is a very good woofer, especially considering its price.
Check Planet10's website for such a discussion.
with that kinda room i might consider multiple subs. there are bound to be some bass related issues. multiple subs help iron this out.
My room is 6m x 4m x 3m high (19.5ft x 13ft x 9.75ft high)
Sprung wood floor with heavy carpet. Plenty of soft furnishings.
Can others tell me what they think would be best as front stereo
speakers 2 x 6.5" mid woofers in 2.5 way B.R. configuration
or 2 x 5" mid woofers in 2.5 way B.R. configuration
or 2 x 5" mid woofers in 2.5 way T.L. configuration?
How low am I likely to get before I start to get problems?
My current speakers are old Wharfedale 3-ways with a 12" woofer
they get boomy when crancked up a bit but I believe the cheap cabinets are playing a part in this.
With these I dont need a sub-woofer for movies!
I'm new to this speaker building with no measuring equipment at present so looking for general advice.
Sprung wood floor with heavy carpet. Plenty of soft furnishings.
Can others tell me what they think would be best as front stereo
speakers 2 x 6.5" mid woofers in 2.5 way B.R. configuration
or 2 x 5" mid woofers in 2.5 way B.R. configuration
or 2 x 5" mid woofers in 2.5 way T.L. configuration?
How low am I likely to get before I start to get problems?
My current speakers are old Wharfedale 3-ways with a 12" woofer
they get boomy when crancked up a bit but I believe the cheap cabinets are playing a part in this.
With these I dont need a sub-woofer for movies!
I'm new to this speaker building with no measuring equipment at present so looking for general advice.
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