I have Wharfedale 9.1 Diamond (behind the woofer, it has label manufactured in 2009), the specs :
The upper capacitor is bipolar with value 20uF / 50V and the bottom one is bipolar 8.2uF/50V.
I just think the bipolar electrolytic is need to be replaced because the speaker is manufactured in 2009 (almost 5 years), I think the electrolytic is loose the capacity
There are several capacitor types : electrolytic, polypropylene, polyester , polystyrene. Which one is the best for crossover?
I curious with upgrading both capacitor with Mundorf MCAP EVO or EVO oil.
Is it worth for price / performance ? How about Wima MKP10?
Will I get significant difference after change the old electrolytic cap?
I open the speaker and here is the crossover
The upper capacitor is bipolar with value 20uF / 50V and the bottom one is bipolar 8.2uF/50V.
I just think the bipolar electrolytic is need to be replaced because the speaker is manufactured in 2009 (almost 5 years), I think the electrolytic is loose the capacity
There are several capacitor types : electrolytic, polypropylene, polyester , polystyrene. Which one is the best for crossover?
I curious with upgrading both capacitor with Mundorf MCAP EVO or EVO oil.
Is it worth for price / performance ? How about Wima MKP10?
Will I get significant difference after change the old electrolytic cap?
Attachments
Last edited:
The answer is "it depends" 😉 If the crossover has been designed taking into account the relatively high esr of electrolytic capacitors, then replacing with low esr film capacitors *may* cause problems.
The sort of problems that may manifest are resonant peaks in the response which occur due to interation between the cap and the coil. A small series resistance tends to damp these resonances, so with an electrolytic because of their inherent series resistance, no additional resistance may be required, but with a film cap it may be required.
I would say that the one on the tweeter (I'm guessing the 8.2uF one) would be safe to replace with a film cap. The one shunting the woofer you may be better off leaving as an electrolitic.
You don't need to spend big bucks on the caps in my opinion. If the originals were electrolytics, then the overall design is probably fairly cheap, and spending big bucks on caps of the same value is probably going to have limited (if any) benefit.
You should be able to get a decent polypropylene cap for the tweeter for well under $10.00 (probably in the three dollar range).
Tony.
The sort of problems that may manifest are resonant peaks in the response which occur due to interation between the cap and the coil. A small series resistance tends to damp these resonances, so with an electrolytic because of their inherent series resistance, no additional resistance may be required, but with a film cap it may be required.
I would say that the one on the tweeter (I'm guessing the 8.2uF one) would be safe to replace with a film cap. The one shunting the woofer you may be better off leaving as an electrolitic.
You don't need to spend big bucks on the caps in my opinion. If the originals were electrolytics, then the overall design is probably fairly cheap, and spending big bucks on caps of the same value is probably going to have limited (if any) benefit.
You should be able to get a decent polypropylene cap for the tweeter for well under $10.00 (probably in the three dollar range).
Tony.
Thanks Tony for your reply.
Yes you're right. The 8.2uF is for tweeter.
I just wonder the sound can improve with 'oil' capacitor. Do you ever try Mundorf Evo Oil? What is your suggestion polypropylene cap for tweeter ?
Yes you're right. The 8.2uF is for tweeter.
I just wonder the sound can improve with 'oil' capacitor. Do you ever try Mundorf Evo Oil? What is your suggestion polypropylene cap for tweeter ?
The Mundorf Oil caps are pretty expensive, but there are a few others that are affordable and that I have had good results with.
Solen 250V PA Series Polypropylenes are one option, an 8.2 uf is only $4.81 CDN, and the larger 20 uf one is $9.83 CDN.
Another option is the Soniccraft Gen 1 caps, their 8.2 uf / 200v is $18.18 US, and their 20 uf /200v is $31.46.
If the Soniccrafts are in your price range, I would give those a try.
Solen 250V PA Series Polypropylenes are one option, an 8.2 uf is only $4.81 CDN, and the larger 20 uf one is $9.83 CDN.
Another option is the Soniccraft Gen 1 caps, their 8.2 uf / 200v is $18.18 US, and their 20 uf /200v is $31.46.
If the Soniccrafts are in your price range, I would give those a try.
@msb64 :
I dont know your speaker crossover whether in past time use electrolytic cap or not. Do you think upgrade to Solen / Soniccraft will make a big difference if I compared with replacing the capacitor with electrolytic like Nichicon Muse BP or Elna bipolar?
I dont know your speaker crossover whether in past time use electrolytic cap or not. Do you think upgrade to Solen / Soniccraft will make a big difference if I compared with replacing the capacitor with electrolytic like Nichicon Muse BP or Elna bipolar?
Hi ypjc, I've never used anything other than no-brand or axon polypropylene caps, so can't comment from experience on anything "exotic". Not saying that they can't make a difference (though many will, it's a rather contentious issue) just that in your particular circumstances I don't think that the extra expense would be justified, as personally my view is that if there is a difference between the cheaper and more expensive polyprops, they will be tiny and the overall system would probably need to be of a certain level before they would (if at all) be noticable 🙂
Just my opinion of course.
Tony.
Just my opinion of course.
Tony.
ypjc
I also have a pair, bought unheard on the strength of a glowing review in Stereophile. I have to say that they don't sound quite as good as the guys at Stereophile said, but they're still very good with the right amp, especially considering the low price I paid for them (UK £99).
That said, you can do a lot to improve them. This is what I did:
Crossover: dismantled PCB. Kept the inductors and threw the other components and PCB away. I kept the inductors because they seemed decent enough quality (the tweeter inductor is air cored with 24 SWG wire, which is just about the best gauge for HF signals, and the bass inductor uses 16 or 18 SWG wire). Also I didn't want to start changing the crossover response by using inductors with different DC resistance to the originals. I also took the paper off the inductors - it's not required really and might conceivably have a small effect on the sound so why not remove it?
Replaced both the electrolytic caps with equivalent value ANSAR polypropylenes (as used by ATC in their speakers so good enough for me). I left the 20uF bass cap unbypassed but added a 10nF extended foil polystyrene cap across the 8uF2 tweeter cap. It seemed to make a slight improvement to the treble so I left it in but YMMV.
Replaced the 2R7 resistor in the tweeter circuit with Mills MRA-12 non-inductive wirewound type.
Hardwired new components together with soldered joints and an optimised layout and spacing in a heavily damped external crossover box. If you look at the original PCB the small tweeter coil is right next to the big bass coil - not a good idea from a cross-coupling viewpoint really.
More tweaks for the drive units and speaker box to follow in my next post.
Regards
Gopher
I also have a pair, bought unheard on the strength of a glowing review in Stereophile. I have to say that they don't sound quite as good as the guys at Stereophile said, but they're still very good with the right amp, especially considering the low price I paid for them (UK £99).
That said, you can do a lot to improve them. This is what I did:
Crossover: dismantled PCB. Kept the inductors and threw the other components and PCB away. I kept the inductors because they seemed decent enough quality (the tweeter inductor is air cored with 24 SWG wire, which is just about the best gauge for HF signals, and the bass inductor uses 16 or 18 SWG wire). Also I didn't want to start changing the crossover response by using inductors with different DC resistance to the originals. I also took the paper off the inductors - it's not required really and might conceivably have a small effect on the sound so why not remove it?
Replaced both the electrolytic caps with equivalent value ANSAR polypropylenes (as used by ATC in their speakers so good enough for me). I left the 20uF bass cap unbypassed but added a 10nF extended foil polystyrene cap across the 8uF2 tweeter cap. It seemed to make a slight improvement to the treble so I left it in but YMMV.
Replaced the 2R7 resistor in the tweeter circuit with Mills MRA-12 non-inductive wirewound type.
Hardwired new components together with soldered joints and an optimised layout and spacing in a heavily damped external crossover box. If you look at the original PCB the small tweeter coil is right next to the big bass coil - not a good idea from a cross-coupling viewpoint really.
More tweaks for the drive units and speaker box to follow in my next post.
Regards
Gopher
Last edited:
Hi Gopher, Thanks for your reply.
I agree with you. I think the sound is just good enough to be used as surround speaker for movie, dont sound quite as good as people's review.
I curious with your statement "you can do a lot to improve them" 🙂 I'm waiting your next post. Thanks
I agree with you. I think the sound is just good enough to be used as surround speaker for movie, dont sound quite as good as people's review.
I curious with your statement "you can do a lot to improve them" 🙂 I'm waiting your next post. Thanks
I highly doubt most speaker manufacturers take the "higher esr" of electrolytics into consideration. The bean counters are in charge of the final design and making it in mass as cheaply as possible is the rule.
Most newer electrolytics already have quite low esr I have found.
Most newer electrolytics already have quite low esr I have found.
What is the treble signature ? If it's bright or fatiguing, not sure than a MKP can improve anything. If it's mate and you like it stay with electrolytic or try MKT to a better match xwith electrolytic in relation to the sound.
maybe you can try two elna silmic 100 V in serie : - + + - : to do a bipolar, but found the legs too thin ! And don't know if value of 16 uf exist... it will miss 0,2 uF. And you need a capacimeter to measure. 0,2 is nothing in a non expensive speaker. The quality or the sound signature of components are more important.
5 years is nothing, I have a Kef 104/2 Ref with original caps and still ok.
Think the best decision is to do nothing IMHO. And will not go with EVO if tweaking but cheaper MKP (Solen, Audyncap, Clarity caps : the less expensive ones...) or MKT.The MK10 is good enough, some test it and found it was of the same level as first range SOLEN or Audyncap.
Where is the resistor, which value ? just before the 8,2 uF cap in serie (for the tweeter). So you can, if the sound is not too bright to change for a wirewound 10 Watts or stay with cement to pad down harchness, and maybe try with another stronger value (+ 3 ohms ???) to pad down too. It's not expensive to try (1 dollar a resistor).
Know a capacitermeter is less than 30 euros if you have doubts and other projects to use it.
maybe you can try two elna silmic 100 V in serie : - + + - : to do a bipolar, but found the legs too thin ! And don't know if value of 16 uf exist... it will miss 0,2 uF. And you need a capacimeter to measure. 0,2 is nothing in a non expensive speaker. The quality or the sound signature of components are more important.
5 years is nothing, I have a Kef 104/2 Ref with original caps and still ok.
Think the best decision is to do nothing IMHO. And will not go with EVO if tweaking but cheaper MKP (Solen, Audyncap, Clarity caps : the less expensive ones...) or MKT.The MK10 is good enough, some test it and found it was of the same level as first range SOLEN or Audyncap.
Where is the resistor, which value ? just before the 8,2 uF cap in serie (for the tweeter). So you can, if the sound is not too bright to change for a wirewound 10 Watts or stay with cement to pad down harchness, and maybe try with another stronger value (+ 3 ohms ???) to pad down too. It's not expensive to try (1 dollar a resistor).
Know a capacitermeter is less than 30 euros if you have doubts and other projects to use it.
Last edited:
Sometimes replacing electrolytics with polyprop makes an improvement, sometimes it makes no difference and i've heard a few people say it made their speakers sound worse. I noticed quite a large improvement replacing the electrolytics in some budget Mission m70, so I think it's worth a try.
The best way to do it, is to replace the tweeter cap to start with and see if it makes an improvement. If it does, try replacing the cap on the woofer.
The best way to do it, is to replace the tweeter cap to start with and see if it makes an improvement. If it does, try replacing the cap on the woofer.
I originally had non polarized electrolytics in part of my crossover, and then changed them to the Solen Polypropylenes. I ran those for about a year, and then switched back to new np electrolytics (also from Solen). After running those for about 6 months, I determined that I preferred the polypropylenes, so I put those back in.
I have not tried the Soniccraft Gen1s in speakers yet, but I have used them in my dac and a few solid state amps and found them to be better all around performers than the Solens and Janzen Cross Caps.
Eldam does make a good point though, if your speakers are already on the "bright" side already, then upgrading the caps may not be of any benefit at all.
I notice that on several good crossovers, large value caps are always bypassed with smaller ones, like .01 mfd.
Good quality caps in that value are typically not outrageous in price, and the Vishay 1837 mkp is practically a steal at only around $1 each.
For me, spending $50 - $100 or so for a possible performance upgrade is not much of a risk at all.
Sometimes the whole learning procedure is just as fun as ending up with a good result.
I have not tried the Soniccraft Gen1s in speakers yet, but I have used them in my dac and a few solid state amps and found them to be better all around performers than the Solens and Janzen Cross Caps.
Eldam does make a good point though, if your speakers are already on the "bright" side already, then upgrading the caps may not be of any benefit at all.
I notice that on several good crossovers, large value caps are always bypassed with smaller ones, like .01 mfd.
Good quality caps in that value are typically not outrageous in price, and the Vishay 1837 mkp is practically a steal at only around $1 each.
For me, spending $50 - $100 or so for a possible performance upgrade is not much of a risk at all.
Sometimes the whole learning procedure is just as fun as ending up with a good result.
Last edited:
In fact, between details and tonal balance, my opinion is : tonal balance is the most important. That's why MKT or electrolytic is not a bad choice... he has to test. the same with wirewound resistor : horrible with bright or klimbing treble, cement with less resolution but capacitive can be better with ears. THE HIGHER cap (50 uf) is not in serie, the swap is less critical but can be heard (if we have on the photograph two second order filters for bass and tweeter ? Is there any others pcb behind the speakers plugs ?)
100 dollars is not few in many countries... here in france a washing machine is 300 to 400 euros. 100 dollars + 100 dollars and so on for bad tweaks are expensive... I paid tio learn. Some times a good second hand is less expensive that a bad tweak. Here the OP said with pertinence the bad level of his speakers. Spend 20% tio tweak it will give his more fun with learning that listening. His choice !
My best and less expensive long term DIY : a second hand Kef 104/2 Ref at 700 euros... can cost less !
100 dollars is not few in many countries... here in france a washing machine is 300 to 400 euros. 100 dollars + 100 dollars and so on for bad tweaks are expensive... I paid tio learn. Some times a good second hand is less expensive that a bad tweak. Here the OP said with pertinence the bad level of his speakers. Spend 20% tio tweak it will give his more fun with learning that listening. His choice !
My best and less expensive long term DIY : a second hand Kef 104/2 Ref at 700 euros... can cost less !
Last edited:
Usually with electrolytic, the higher the voltage rating the higher the resistance - particularly if they are designed to accept higher current ripple rejection.
The fact is though, that for a small capacitance value electrolytic with a low voltage of around 50v, that resistance will almost certainly be VERY low.
Essentially it's a non-issue.
As for sound..
Usually signal cap.s in a parallel high-pass for the tweeter have the greatest effect.
To get the most difference while still adhering to value, I'd look to double-wound/foil capacitors: Audyn Plus, Jatzen Superior Z, and Mundorf Supreme's.
Of the 3, the Audyn Plus are usually the least expensive:
https://www.intertechnik.com/Shop/C...Audyn-Cap-Plus/_PLUS-820-08_1768,en,280,46741
For your larger values in the midrange look to Mundorf Evo Oil.
The fact is though, that for a small capacitance value electrolytic with a low voltage of around 50v, that resistance will almost certainly be VERY low.
Essentially it's a non-issue.
As for sound..
Usually signal cap.s in a parallel high-pass for the tweeter have the greatest effect.
To get the most difference while still adhering to value, I'd look to double-wound/foil capacitors: Audyn Plus, Jatzen Superior Z, and Mundorf Supreme's.
Of the 3, the Audyn Plus are usually the least expensive:
https://www.intertechnik.com/Shop/C...Audyn-Cap-Plus/_PLUS-820-08_1768,en,280,46741
For your larger values in the midrange look to Mundorf Evo Oil.
Last edited:
Without measurements of 'before" and "after" it's debatable if swapping caps does anything other than satisfy the ego....."I changed that awful electrolytic with this boutique poly cap and WHOA!!!!" .......get what I mean? We all want are efforts to mean something so of course there are "improvements"
On the other hand, if the capacitive values are not matched with a meter, then of course there will be a sound difference. You changed the crossover point slightly. It's always nice to have a basic understanding of what you are doing instead of swapping out parts and hoping for the best.
On the other hand, if the capacitive values are not matched with a meter, then of course there will be a sound difference. You changed the crossover point slightly. It's always nice to have a basic understanding of what you are doing instead of swapping out parts and hoping for the best.
..and in keeping with this:
Note that electrolytics (particularly used-ones) can often be off-spec..
8.2 uf maybe more of a theoretical value than a real one. 😱
Take a look on measurements here:
Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
If you replace 8.2 to poly cap - you'll get more resolution, and it will highlight 5-8K, which your ears hardly will like.
If you replace 20uF in bass section - most probably you'll loose "artificial volume", what electrolytic add.
100% sure, that electrolytic capacitors there are OK. It is recommended to measure them before buying new ones - no sense to replace working parts.
Weakest place in your speakers is tweeter, cabinet and crossover.
Start from side-bars inside of cabinet, then some bitumen to walls. Also you can replace internal wiring to standard copper 2.5mm - no need for expensive ones.
You can play with re-designing crossover, but it is long and expensive process, which for such relatively inexpensive speakers is not a good idea.
Next step - you can replace tweeter + make new crossover (or alternatively - sell them and buy better second-hand speakers). For sure it will bring more, then just replacing caps to higher grade.
Probably not, especially in budget ranges. FWIW I just measured the esr of some caps with my bluesr meter.
11uF polyprop 0.1ohms
10uF bipolar 100V 0.5 ohms
22uF bipolar 100V 0.1ohms
So by the time we get up to 22uF the esr is becoming insignificant, but at 10uF The difference between a poly and an electro is significant. If this 10uF cap was in a shunt position, the extra 0.4 ohms in the electro *could* be making a difference due to damping of resonances. In the tweeter position it would also be contributing to a slight lowering of levels I would think (so replacing with a poly may result in brighter sounding trebel, measurements would confirm).
Where I personally found the biggest difference with electros vs film caps was in notch filters. When I used electros (for prototyping) the amount of cut (measured) was substantially less than when equivalent value poly caps were used.
Tony.
Ooh, that's really bad. 😀 ..freak'n half an ohm for the 10uf!
Yup, best practice is to measure. 🙂
- Status
- Not open for further replies.