Something I have noticed about chip amps I have built and others I have listened to, including high end amps, is that the bass is always really tight and well defined.
The older amps like my Marantz 1200 (that sadly recently died) had a very relaxed almost airy fat bottomed end sound that seemed to go deeper and had a more dragged out sound.
After switching to chip amps this has been the hardest thing to come to terms with because I realize the chip amps are far more accurate at reproducing audio than the classic amps of yesteryear, but I still kind of enjoy that boomy fat sound of the old amps.
EQ does nothing for this BTW. I have played with EQing chip amps, have tried stiff power supplies, sagging types, and really the only thing that comes close on chip amps is the sagging kind, but even that still sounds wrong compared to old school discrete amps.
What is it exactly that makes that difference in sound?
I damn near have to retrain my ears because I know the chipamps on all the test equipment proves themselves for accuracy and low distortion across the board, but for some reason that distortion in old SS equipment sounded neat. Maybe it is the same as with those who prefer tube amps with output transformers distorting the sound?
The older amps like my Marantz 1200 (that sadly recently died) had a very relaxed almost airy fat bottomed end sound that seemed to go deeper and had a more dragged out sound.
After switching to chip amps this has been the hardest thing to come to terms with because I realize the chip amps are far more accurate at reproducing audio than the classic amps of yesteryear, but I still kind of enjoy that boomy fat sound of the old amps.
EQ does nothing for this BTW. I have played with EQing chip amps, have tried stiff power supplies, sagging types, and really the only thing that comes close on chip amps is the sagging kind, but even that still sounds wrong compared to old school discrete amps.
What is it exactly that makes that difference in sound?
I damn near have to retrain my ears because I know the chipamps on all the test equipment proves themselves for accuracy and low distortion across the board, but for some reason that distortion in old SS equipment sounded neat. Maybe it is the same as with those who prefer tube amps with output transformers distorting the sound?
Commercial amps are built to price.
That price forces the production team to "cut corners", often without the agreement of the designer.
The performance is thus limited.
Bass is one of the areas that gets hit in this price cutting.
As soon as you start comparing a DIY amplifier you are no longer at the vagaries of a separate "production team" reducing performance without your permission.
PSU is one of the most expensive and most important parts of a power amplifier.
Cuts here severely impact on bass performance !
That price forces the production team to "cut corners", often without the agreement of the designer.
The performance is thus limited.
Bass is one of the areas that gets hit in this price cutting.
As soon as you start comparing a DIY amplifier you are no longer at the vagaries of a separate "production team" reducing performance without your permission.
PSU is one of the most expensive and most important parts of a power amplifier.
Cuts here severely impact on bass performance !
There is a good possibility that your old amp had a higher output impedance than that of your chip amp ( which IS very low !). Besides some amps appear to have greater control over the bass driver than others. I'm not fully convinced that this is just due to output impedance.
Anyway try using a low resistance like 1 ohm in series between the chip amp output and the speaker input terminal . ( on one line only). The bass should get 'warmer...more floppy' due to a bass hump. Does this sound like your old amp ?
Anyway try using a low resistance like 1 ohm in series between the chip amp output and the speaker input terminal . ( on one line only). The bass should get 'warmer...more floppy' due to a bass hump. Does this sound like your old amp ?
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<< ..for some reason that distortion in old SS equipment sounded neat. Maybe it is the same as with those who prefer tube amps with output transformers distorting the sound? >>
Well yes, you're exactly right. Hence the subculture of tube heads--or valve heads, if you're European. Tubes distort, but they sound good when they do. It has to do with even and odd harmonics. But what really wanted to say was...
<< ...my Marantz 1200 (that sadly recently died) >>
It's not something I'm into, but just FYI, amps don't just generally die...or not unless there are sparks and considerable smoke involved.
Obviously I'm just guessing, but old capacitors can at some point dry out and fail. Or a tube dies, of course. In any case it's not impossible that an old amp needs only minor repair to be up and running again.
Unfortunately, to make repairs like this you need a real electronics tech, the kind of guy who used to really repair radios and TVs. And there are not as many of these are there used to be.
But they do exist, and keeping old amps running is part of the tube subculture. This to the point that schematics for your Marantz might well be available online. It's not impossible that your amp could be brought back to life with a little--or a great deal of--surfing.
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<< ..for some reason that distortion in old SS equipment sounded neat. Maybe it is the same as with those who prefer tube amps with output transformers distorting the sound? >>
Well yes, you're exactly right. Hence the subculture of tube heads--or valve heads, if you're European. Tubes distort, but they sound good when they do. It has to do with even and odd harmonics. But what really wanted to say was...
<< ...my Marantz 1200 (that sadly recently died) >>
It's not something I'm into, but just FYI, amps don't just generally die...or not unless there are sparks and considerable smoke involved.
Obviously I'm just guessing, but old capacitors can at some point dry out and fail. Or a tube dies, of course. In any case it's not impossible that an old amp needs only minor repair to be up and running again.
Unfortunately, to make repairs like this you need a real electronics tech, the kind of guy who used to really repair radios and TVs. And there are not as many of these are there used to be.
But they do exist, and keeping old amps running is part of the tube subculture. This to the point that schematics for your Marantz might well be available online. It's not impossible that your amp could be brought back to life with a little--or a great deal of--surfing.
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IMHO it would probably be easier to repair your old amp than to "switch to chip amps" if by switching you meant building them yourself. And if you can build chip amps then there's a good chance you can also build transistor amps, some are quite simple. but if you really want something interesting try tubes.
What makes chip amps sound so tight? Very low impedance, or high damping factor, whichever you want to call it. you know what damping factor is, right? The ability of the amplifier to stop the speaker tendency to keep wobbling at low frequencies, after the signal itself has stopped, and is essentially the speaker impedance divided by the amp output impedance. Some say this doesn't really matter, i say it matters a lot, at least to me. For instance i love the sound of tube amps for some music, while i feel they ruin other music. As an all rounder every day amp i prefer a chip amp, hybrid even, why not? No bloated uncontrolled bass and no sterile sound either. That's what i've been using for years now.
What makes chip amps sound so tight? Very low impedance, or high damping factor, whichever you want to call it. you know what damping factor is, right? The ability of the amplifier to stop the speaker tendency to keep wobbling at low frequencies, after the signal itself has stopped, and is essentially the speaker impedance divided by the amp output impedance. Some say this doesn't really matter, i say it matters a lot, at least to me. For instance i love the sound of tube amps for some music, while i feel they ruin other music. As an all rounder every day amp i prefer a chip amp, hybrid even, why not? No bloated uncontrolled bass and no sterile sound either. That's what i've been using for years now.
BTW I am an engineer of sorts. See my homemade chipamp with discrete preamp for example that I designed.
Anyways yes I know the marantz is fixable and I know exactly what and how to fix it. The right channel died because the PA transistors gave out from partying with it a bit too much. Just real hard to find those replacement transistors now unless I buy a substitute which still will be risky.
Anyways thanks for the comments.
I will try the 1ohm resistor idea that ashok talked about just for fun and A/B it with a toggle switch to see what difference is had out of curiosity.
Anyways yes I know the marantz is fixable and I know exactly what and how to fix it. The right channel died because the PA transistors gave out from partying with it a bit too much. Just real hard to find those replacement transistors now unless I buy a substitute which still will be risky.
Anyways thanks for the comments.
I will try the 1ohm resistor idea that ashok talked about just for fun and A/B it with a toggle switch to see what difference is had out of curiosity.
If you use cheap power caps close to the chip with high esr the bass will be weak! It might give you the sound you wan't. I have been aiming for the opposite and found out that if you use 14mohm aluminium organic caps (sanyo os-con) or similir the bass and distortion will be rock solid.
I suspect the "fat sound" you're used to arises from higher THD at lower frequencies. There could be many reasons for this. My guess would be that the supply in your old amp has higher output impedance. As mentioned already, it could also be that the amp itself has higher output impedance.
The chipamp gives tight bass due to current starving.
In a discrete amp, reduce the value of the on board filter cap close to the power output and you will get the tight bass.
Gajanan Phadte
In a discrete amp, reduce the value of the on board filter cap close to the power output and you will get the tight bass.
Gajanan Phadte
Damping factor on the 1200 was quite good. Legendary Audio Classics: Marantz Model 1200 Integrated Amplifier These old Marantz had massive power supplies, most of the enclosure size was to fit the transformers.
Why won't a chipamp suddenly die?.... give me one reason. It's the same as with you capacitor, the field effect gets less and only because you don't notice the degredation in quality, cause you year it every day, you don't notice it.... nothing lasts forever.
greeting from beautifull holland, with the coconut plants growing everywhere and the weather is allways nice
greeting from beautifull holland, with the coconut plants growing everywhere and the weather is allways nice
Chipamp "can die", but then you replace the caps and voila works again. It is like saying a car dies just because the battery dies. Also degradation of caps have affects other than sound. Like most of the lcd displays start to act strange when the caps start dying. Replace caps and good for years again.
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