First time here and have some thinking about restoring my Thule IA60B.
I should also inform that I have only basic knowledge in electronic construction and last time I studied physics and electronics was 14 years ago but I am eager to re-learn cause I have many projects waiting.... and dreams to fulfill.🙄
I can't keep my fingers away from anything that has an enclosure and I do believe that everything created for the economical market can be, more or less improved. I am a Civil Engineer..... in natural resources but with a highly musical and audiophile ear. I am not afraid of doing wrong but prefer to do things right, or at least perfect. I do know how to solder.😀
The Thule has about 14 years on its shoulders and I presume that the caps are no longer in mint condition and since I like the sound (or to be more correct, I like the way I know it did sounded years ago) I thought that it could be worth fiddling with.
I am going to change in total 8 caps of different sizing and capacity and that should not be an issue BUT, what if I change the capacity? If I choose to go up from ex 10000 micro til 15000 micro. As I remember my physics I don't do anything to the actual voltage and current but I can, with a bad choice of caps introduce hum and unwanted disturbance to the sound. Now I am going for some more audiophile caps so I hope that it will not be the case here but is there anything else I have to consider?
Teach me, you fantastic DIY:ers, I am eager to learn. If I now choose to size the caps upwards in capacity and that is not a problem, were should I concentrate my work (and money), at the PSU or for the feeding on the PCB?
I will also start my thread to ask about op amps. I have located 4 op amps on the PCB, of type BB OPA2134 and if I choose to play with these (I have LM4562 in mind after some studying on the internet) will I have to swap all four or is it only two of them that has to be swapped. Again I turn to you at this eminent forum cause I know that here, you find more knowledge and experience than sometimes are valued in societies around the world.
If you now say, get the schematics or the service manual, that would be a logical answer to such question then I say; Don't want to pay €25 just for the manual, I get the caps and op amps for less than that price. I have searched the Net for any information about the op amps but don't find anything and I presume that most people here at DIY audio, with some years of experience will see it immediately. Then I would prefer to support this site with €25 than give it to someone that are eager to fill their pockets on the behalf of a long dead company name, sorry not the name, just the company.
I will also tidy up inside the amp and isolate some power cables and a power transformer to finish of the work and hopefully restore the sound of my old Thule, maybe improve it somehow with better op amps and continue to enjoy it fore some time more.......
I have a dream..... (will come back later, in another thread about that)😉
I should also inform that I have only basic knowledge in electronic construction and last time I studied physics and electronics was 14 years ago but I am eager to re-learn cause I have many projects waiting.... and dreams to fulfill.🙄
I can't keep my fingers away from anything that has an enclosure and I do believe that everything created for the economical market can be, more or less improved. I am a Civil Engineer..... in natural resources but with a highly musical and audiophile ear. I am not afraid of doing wrong but prefer to do things right, or at least perfect. I do know how to solder.😀
The Thule has about 14 years on its shoulders and I presume that the caps are no longer in mint condition and since I like the sound (or to be more correct, I like the way I know it did sounded years ago) I thought that it could be worth fiddling with.
I am going to change in total 8 caps of different sizing and capacity and that should not be an issue BUT, what if I change the capacity? If I choose to go up from ex 10000 micro til 15000 micro. As I remember my physics I don't do anything to the actual voltage and current but I can, with a bad choice of caps introduce hum and unwanted disturbance to the sound. Now I am going for some more audiophile caps so I hope that it will not be the case here but is there anything else I have to consider?
Teach me, you fantastic DIY:ers, I am eager to learn. If I now choose to size the caps upwards in capacity and that is not a problem, were should I concentrate my work (and money), at the PSU or for the feeding on the PCB?
I will also start my thread to ask about op amps. I have located 4 op amps on the PCB, of type BB OPA2134 and if I choose to play with these (I have LM4562 in mind after some studying on the internet) will I have to swap all four or is it only two of them that has to be swapped. Again I turn to you at this eminent forum cause I know that here, you find more knowledge and experience than sometimes are valued in societies around the world.
If you now say, get the schematics or the service manual, that would be a logical answer to such question then I say; Don't want to pay €25 just for the manual, I get the caps and op amps for less than that price. I have searched the Net for any information about the op amps but don't find anything and I presume that most people here at DIY audio, with some years of experience will see it immediately. Then I would prefer to support this site with €25 than give it to someone that are eager to fill their pockets on the behalf of a long dead company name, sorry not the name, just the company.
I will also tidy up inside the amp and isolate some power cables and a power transformer to finish of the work and hopefully restore the sound of my old Thule, maybe improve it somehow with better op amps and continue to enjoy it fore some time more.......
I have a dream..... (will come back later, in another thread about that)😉
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For decent-quality electrolytics in casual home use, 14 years is nothing. And I doubt a manufacturer willing to use a multilayer PCB would skimp on parts quality there. What sort of brands/series did they use? Trying to fix things that aren't broken tends to be a fabulous way of creating some real problems.
OPA2134s are good opamps when used properly, which would have to be verified. (On a quick glance, I can't make much sense of the opamp circuitry shown.) If you can't find schematics and don't feel like shelling out for a service manual, you'll have to reverse-engineer the circuitry yourself, simple as that. You have to know how much your time is worth.
It seems that they are using a low-noise circuit variant for the LM317/337Ls there with a cap on the adjust pin, nice. The date codes on the chips seem to indicate 2002/early 2003, btw, so the unit should be more like 12 years old.
I don't like that the transformer secondary wiring isn't twisted, this should be easy to rectify though.
OPA2134s are good opamps when used properly, which would have to be verified. (On a quick glance, I can't make much sense of the opamp circuitry shown.) If you can't find schematics and don't feel like shelling out for a service manual, you'll have to reverse-engineer the circuitry yourself, simple as that. You have to know how much your time is worth.
It seems that they are using a low-noise circuit variant for the LM317/337Ls there with a cap on the adjust pin, nice. The date codes on the chips seem to indicate 2002/early 2003, btw, so the unit should be more like 12 years old.
I don't like that the transformer secondary wiring isn't twisted, this should be easy to rectify though.
check out this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/126352-what-happen-thule-audio.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/126352-what-happen-thule-audio.html
Thank you for your comments and I appreciate them all.
Aparatusonitus; Have been that road, doesn't work since they are not the same, built the same way on the same concept but not the same. Tnx anyway!
Tieffbasseubertr; Much information but still not what I need, have sent you a PM!
Sgrossclass; Thank you for dating my Amp, did not know that there are date stamps on the chips but know we know how old it is (Bought second hand so I did not know exactly how old it was). When it comes to production, no matter what, I know from own experience that you always make a compromise when it come to quality and price. Unfortunately most of the time price win that competition and that is why I have the intention to change the caps in my Amp. The caps are Vishay BC series and that is the cheapest on the market so even in a high performing amp you make those choices and that I want to change. Will I gain some better sound? Don't know until it is done but I will most likely not get a worse sounding amp and then there is the curiosity, I am just that way.
Then back to the only questioned not answered, am I right when I say that it doesn't matter if I for exampel have 12000 micro Farad instead 10000 micro Farad. Just mean that I will store more electrons that can be used for music production, not changing anything else in the circuit? Right?
Lovely to be here and I will come back. Have a dream and news are coming slowly but.....
Aparatusonitus; Have been that road, doesn't work since they are not the same, built the same way on the same concept but not the same. Tnx anyway!
Tieffbasseubertr; Much information but still not what I need, have sent you a PM!
Sgrossclass; Thank you for dating my Amp, did not know that there are date stamps on the chips but know we know how old it is (Bought second hand so I did not know exactly how old it was). When it comes to production, no matter what, I know from own experience that you always make a compromise when it come to quality and price. Unfortunately most of the time price win that competition and that is why I have the intention to change the caps in my Amp. The caps are Vishay BC series and that is the cheapest on the market so even in a high performing amp you make those choices and that I want to change. Will I gain some better sound? Don't know until it is done but I will most likely not get a worse sounding amp and then there is the curiosity, I am just that way.
Then back to the only questioned not answered, am I right when I say that it doesn't matter if I for exampel have 12000 micro Farad instead 10000 micro Farad. Just mean that I will store more electrons that can be used for music production, not changing anything else in the circuit? Right?
Lovely to be here and I will come back. Have a dream and news are coming slowly but.....
Work is ongoing with my Thule
Hi
Have spent some days now going through my Thule IA60B to play with it and when I was going that way, changing four small ones on the PCB I also took the time to change two caps on incoming mains. Instead of 2 x 3300 microF I have now increased the values to 2 x 4700 microF Nichicon Gold. The main PCB is still housing 4 x 100 microF but nowdays Nichicon Fine Gold 😀 but I am going to see if it is worth changing to 220 microF later, now I am going to evaluate the result so far....
Oh, I did change the OP Amps also from the Burr & Brown to my intended LM4562.
So far, so good!
Starting up the first attempt was a bummer! No sound, no nothing.....😱
Ok, last night I took two hours going through the PCB with a tweezer checking all components.... yes, all of them and voila! Two caps had loosend when working on the PCB so after fixing that..... sound!😛
Cold start and with a set of lousy speakers from a cheap buy and there was music again...
I don't dare say wow yet but there is definitly a more solid, three dimensional sound stage and from what I can hear it seem to be a more distinct LF, nice and clear HF. I have a sligth problem though and since it is my first time really messing with PCB:s and amplifiers I don't really know how to proceed, I need help!
Gain and Bias! How do I set theese correctly without the help of schematics or Oscilloscope?? Anyone who can contribute with some bulletproof info on this? First time so be patient and pedagogical please.😉
Hi
Have spent some days now going through my Thule IA60B to play with it and when I was going that way, changing four small ones on the PCB I also took the time to change two caps on incoming mains. Instead of 2 x 3300 microF I have now increased the values to 2 x 4700 microF Nichicon Gold. The main PCB is still housing 4 x 100 microF but nowdays Nichicon Fine Gold 😀 but I am going to see if it is worth changing to 220 microF later, now I am going to evaluate the result so far....
Oh, I did change the OP Amps also from the Burr & Brown to my intended LM4562.
So far, so good!
Starting up the first attempt was a bummer! No sound, no nothing.....😱
Ok, last night I took two hours going through the PCB with a tweezer checking all components.... yes, all of them and voila! Two caps had loosend when working on the PCB so after fixing that..... sound!😛
Cold start and with a set of lousy speakers from a cheap buy and there was music again...
I don't dare say wow yet but there is definitly a more solid, three dimensional sound stage and from what I can hear it seem to be a more distinct LF, nice and clear HF. I have a sligth problem though and since it is my first time really messing with PCB:s and amplifiers I don't really know how to proceed, I need help!
Gain and Bias! How do I set theese correctly without the help of schematics or Oscilloscope?? Anyone who can contribute with some bulletproof info on this? First time so be patient and pedagogical please.😉
About gain and bias, I suppose both settings are possible on the Thule cause both channels are equipped with double pots (four on the pcb, two per channel) as seen here (sorry for the quality).
Problem is that I am not that well experienced so I can directly tell which is which. I can hear a big difference in sound when turning them but I dont know where to measure with DMM so I can verify current or voltage. I have heard that bias I can set while measuring the output but I have never done this and need some advice. Gain I know that you have to measure on the pcb but where do I do this, before op amps, after?? Need help!
Problem is that I am not that well experienced so I can directly tell which is which. I can hear a big difference in sound when turning them but I dont know where to measure with DMM so I can verify current or voltage. I have heard that bias I can set while measuring the output but I have never done this and need some advice. Gain I know that you have to measure on the pcb but where do I do this, before op amps, after?? Need help!
Thule Audio's Integrated Amplifier IA-60B for "One-Button" operation
From Thule Audio's IA60B I know two different versions:
1) with main board EM1051 rv.1/rv.2
2) with main board EM1051 rv.5 and above
The main difference are different C-MOS parts for input select (4053 in rv.5 instead 4066 in rv.1/rv.2) and different op-amps (OP275 in rv.1/rv.2 and OPA2604/OPA2134 in rv.5 and above). But there are also differences in the layout and in the kind of programming (other software for the operating processor on the front-/display-PCB).
There are an integrated amp (IA60B) and a preamplifier (PR150B - without equipped power amp area on PCB) based on both above mentioned PCB's, but no power amp version.
A serious shortcoming in the circuit design of both versions are the absense of electrolytic capacitors at all the input- and some regulator-pins of all LM317/337 regulators. Additional the resistors to reducing the input voltage for the LM317/LM337 are too low. Because there are also no heatsinks for the LM317/337 in the SO-8 outline, there are pronounced thermal stress arround the regulators, particularly the ones for the front-/display PCB - check out also the schematic of rv.5 under
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...-integrated-amplifier-rc-who-can-explain.html
for this section (please note, the rv.1/rv.2 version use +/-2V5 and therefore most parts and values are different). To observe is a burned PCB-area and several grilled SMT electrolytics arround the hot regulators.
Next time I will upload some images, where you are can see additional electrolytis and associated steps of mounting for enhancing the reliability, sound quality and lifetime.
To understand the theory of operation from the power amp section, check out post #8 under
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...ss-b-thule-audio-topology-also-used-teac.html
From Thule Audio's IA60B I know two different versions:
1) with main board EM1051 rv.1/rv.2
2) with main board EM1051 rv.5 and above
The main difference are different C-MOS parts for input select (4053 in rv.5 instead 4066 in rv.1/rv.2) and different op-amps (OP275 in rv.1/rv.2 and OPA2604/OPA2134 in rv.5 and above). But there are also differences in the layout and in the kind of programming (other software for the operating processor on the front-/display-PCB).
There are an integrated amp (IA60B) and a preamplifier (PR150B - without equipped power amp area on PCB) based on both above mentioned PCB's, but no power amp version.
A serious shortcoming in the circuit design of both versions are the absense of electrolytic capacitors at all the input- and some regulator-pins of all LM317/337 regulators. Additional the resistors to reducing the input voltage for the LM317/LM337 are too low. Because there are also no heatsinks for the LM317/337 in the SO-8 outline, there are pronounced thermal stress arround the regulators, particularly the ones for the front-/display PCB - check out also the schematic of rv.5 under
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...-integrated-amplifier-rc-who-can-explain.html
for this section (please note, the rv.1/rv.2 version use +/-2V5 and therefore most parts and values are different). To observe is a burned PCB-area and several grilled SMT electrolytics arround the hot regulators.
Next time I will upload some images, where you are can see additional electrolytis and associated steps of mounting for enhancing the reliability, sound quality and lifetime.
To understand the theory of operation from the power amp section, check out post #8 under
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...ss-b-thule-audio-topology-also-used-teac.html
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