Hello,
Sometimes I would like to leave my system on but I am worried about surges and spikes.
This is hurricane season in Miami and it has been raining almost everyday and very hard. NASA has been very successful with the New Horizons probe. The spacecraft uses a plutonium in a radioisotope thermal generator (RTG), a long-lived nuclear battery that weights only 24 Lbs and has lifetime of 20-25 years but in this "state of the art" city we still live in the middle ages, when it rains the power often goes off for several hours.
The power company installed a surge protector which is installed at the electric meter and my system also has one but we are talking about strong lightning storms which can fry everything electrical.
Is there a surge/spike proof device available for a "very reasonable" price?
Cheers,
Sometimes I would like to leave my system on but I am worried about surges and spikes.
This is hurricane season in Miami and it has been raining almost everyday and very hard. NASA has been very successful with the New Horizons probe. The spacecraft uses a plutonium in a radioisotope thermal generator (RTG), a long-lived nuclear battery that weights only 24 Lbs and has lifetime of 20-25 years but in this "state of the art" city we still live in the middle ages, when it rains the power often goes off for several hours.
The power company installed a surge protector which is installed at the electric meter and my system also has one but we are talking about strong lightning storms which can fry everything electrical.
Is there a surge/spike proof device available for a "very reasonable" price?
Cheers,
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There are a few types of "surge arrestor".
Some are fast, some are slower and some are very fast.
GDT, MOV, TVS, VDR are some types.
You can use a combination.
The gas discharge tube is a type that I think does not wear out. This is what BT use in their master socket to protect phone users from spikes when lightning hits their above ground cabling.
Fit at your distribution board to catch them early.
and inside your 4 way plug extension board. This where I use 4 off 275Vac MOV and a couple of X2 caps.
Some are fast, some are slower and some are very fast.
GDT, MOV, TVS, VDR are some types.
You can use a combination.
The gas discharge tube is a type that I think does not wear out. This is what BT use in their master socket to protect phone users from spikes when lightning hits their above ground cabling.
Fit at your distribution board to catch them early.
and inside your 4 way plug extension board. This where I use 4 off 275Vac MOV and a couple of X2 caps.
Only solution that makes direct lightning strikes and other destructive surges irrelevant is what (it sounds like) the electric company installed. Because no protector does protection.
Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Number must never be ignored. How many joules does a plug-in protector claim to absorb? Hundreds? A thousand? That is near zero protection. Always consider the numbers.
Best protection for cable is a hardwire from that coax to single point earth ground. No protector required. Then hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbs harmlessly in earth. Then no surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances.
AC wires cannot connect direct to earth. So a 'whole house' protector does what that hardwire does better. But again, a protector and protection are two completely different devices. Protection is defined by the quality of and connection to. For example, if that connection from utility provided protector to earth is too long (ie more than 10 feet), then protection is compromised. Again, do not ignore that feet number.
Critically important is 'single point earth ground'. If you do not have that, then all protectors are compromised.
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Magic boxes connected to receptacles do not claim such protection - obviously do not have that earth ground connection. Any wire inside any incoming cable that also does not connect to earth (either directly or via a protector) compromises interior protection. Even a plug-in protector or UPS need protection only possible by what (it sounds like) the utility would have installed.
Naïve consumers confuse protection with protectors. Each protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell if for over $25. The obscene profit margin that pays for advertising is why many naïve consumers recommend that near zero protector. How does its hundreds of joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. But many recommend it anyway.
Protectors that are properly sized (especially MOV types) wear out or fail after many decades and many direct lightning strikes. Protectors that degrade are intentionally undersized to increase profits and fail on a first surge to promote more sales.
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It also depends on what your system is connected to. Frequently, I see lightning transients have come in between CATV coax or DSL phone lines, and arc to mains ground inside receivers. So connecting to TV, ethernet can also be a problem.
For mains protection, forget about MOV's, they can only take a handful of hits, and they age quickly. Gas-tubes, TVS are superior and only found in better power bars etc. Or an huge LC filter works well.
Unfortunately, manufacturers prey on consumer fear over power surges and there are many crappy protection products on the market. I've seen many power bars with tiny dime-sized MOV's and claims of XXX Joules surge ability.
For mains protection, forget about MOV's, they can only take a handful of hits, and they age quickly. Gas-tubes, TVS are superior and only found in better power bars etc. Or an huge LC filter works well.
Unfortunately, manufacturers prey on consumer fear over power surges and there are many crappy protection products on the market. I've seen many power bars with tiny dime-sized MOV's and claims of XXX Joules surge ability.
The only 100% effective protection is to unplug from the wall.
You could then, though, use a standard UPS to idle through the storm.
You could then, though, use a standard UPS to idle through the storm.
My understanding is that no matter how much protection you install, there is no guarantee against lightning. The safest method is to unplug, the second is a lightning rod, and everything else is hit and miss.
I did some research after a bolt took out a couple of my routers and a lan port on one of my home PCs. A bolt of lightning can be up to 200kV and send more than 2kA down to the ground. That's a lot of energy and not sure if any man-made device can handle that.
Our power lines are buried, but the internet comes in through LAN cables from a switch in a neiborhood. That's where the discharge came through in my case.
I did some research after a bolt took out a couple of my routers and a lan port on one of my home PCs. A bolt of lightning can be up to 200kV and send more than 2kA down to the ground. That's a lot of energy and not sure if any man-made device can handle that.
Our power lines are buried, but the internet comes in through LAN cables from a switch in a neiborhood. That's where the discharge came through in my case.
if there are 100 clients connected to the Surge/Spike affected line and all 100 clinets have a surge/spike absorber (that does not wear out) then the total energy absorption is 100 times what is fitted at the ONE client's entry point.
This appears to be the philosophy that BT uses. Every client gets a GDT at the master socket.
This appears to be the philosophy that BT uses. Every client gets a GDT at the master socket.
Plenty of myths to address. For example, best surge protectors use MOVs (as that utility installed one probably does). However most who discuss protection do not learn how it works and routinely ignore every number. Then assume dollars or pounds determine quality.
MOV protector that quickly degrade or fail are typically grossly undersized - and the most expensive protectors. A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection in any appliance then destroys a grossly undersized protector. Naive consumers (people who ignore numbers) then use wild speculation to conclude, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer."
If a surge is incoming to a protector, then the same current is outgoing into attached appliances - simultaneously. Only item that fails much later is a weakest link - often a near zero protector. Due to superior protection already insinde appliances. That gets many to recommend a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts selling for $25 or $85. Or even the tinier protector best called a UPS.
If any wire inside any incoming cable is not part of the protection 'system', then that can be the reason for appliance damage. That damaged appliance need not even be connected to the unprotected cable. Once a surge is anywhere inside the building, then it goes hunting for earth destructively via all appliances.
That is especially true of many so called 'no MOV' protectors whose numbers do not claim to block a serious surge. Whose numbers only claim that the protector will not fail while nearby appliances do.
All should know that cable and telephone wires traditionally have effective protection. But again, protection is always about this number: where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? If that protector does not connect low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground, then the protector ineffective - probably a profit center. Protectors are simple dumb science. 'Art' of protection (and what must have most of your attention) is what absorbs that energy - single point earth ground.
Does not matter if wires are overhead or underground. Same surge threat exists with both. Protection is always about how every wire (overhead or underground) enters the building.
Unplugging has always been least effective for too many reasons to list. Top of the list is dependence on a human - who is rarely there and usually only unplugs after it is too late. Meanwhile, how does one unplug the dishwasher, furnace, all clocks, smoke detectors, RCD, and air conditioner? Those and plenty more appliances also must be disconnected or have no protection. Facilities that never have damage also never unplug.
BT does not unplug or use protectors inside their building. BT also only uses a solution proven by over 100 years of science and experience - proper earthing and 'whole house' protectors.
More numbers. A lightning bolt is typically 20,000 amps. It only creates a high voltage when one foolishly tries to block or absorb a surge inside the house. A completely different soution - also called a surge protector - is about how 20,000 amps connects to earth on a low impedance (ie wire can have no sharp bends) hardwire. Then voltage is near zero. No other and superior solution exists. A minimal 'whole house' protector for AC mains is 50,000 amps. Because no protectors must degrade or fail for decades - to enrich the manufacturer.
Lightning rods are about connecting current to earth on a low impedance path that remains outside the building ... to protect the structure. Protection is about connecting current to earth on a low impedance path that remains outside the building ... to protect appliances. When properly implemented, then voltage remains near zero. Nothing new here. This is how it has always been done even more than 100 years ago.
Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even in the same town due parameters such as geology.
Protector rated at hundreds or thousand joules is near zero; marketed to naive consumers who routinely ignore numbers. Who spend tens or 100 times more money for that near zero solution.
Recommended solution is not 100%. IEEE provides numbers. Properly earthed protection is typically 99.5% to 99.9% effective. So yes, nothing is 100%. Once we include numbers, then nobody cares - it is more than sufficient as well as many times less expensive.
MOV protector that quickly degrade or fail are typically grossly undersized - and the most expensive protectors. A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection in any appliance then destroys a grossly undersized protector. Naive consumers (people who ignore numbers) then use wild speculation to conclude, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer."
If a surge is incoming to a protector, then the same current is outgoing into attached appliances - simultaneously. Only item that fails much later is a weakest link - often a near zero protector. Due to superior protection already insinde appliances. That gets many to recommend a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts selling for $25 or $85. Or even the tinier protector best called a UPS.
If any wire inside any incoming cable is not part of the protection 'system', then that can be the reason for appliance damage. That damaged appliance need not even be connected to the unprotected cable. Once a surge is anywhere inside the building, then it goes hunting for earth destructively via all appliances.
That is especially true of many so called 'no MOV' protectors whose numbers do not claim to block a serious surge. Whose numbers only claim that the protector will not fail while nearby appliances do.
All should know that cable and telephone wires traditionally have effective protection. But again, protection is always about this number: where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? If that protector does not connect low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to single point earth ground, then the protector ineffective - probably a profit center. Protectors are simple dumb science. 'Art' of protection (and what must have most of your attention) is what absorbs that energy - single point earth ground.
Does not matter if wires are overhead or underground. Same surge threat exists with both. Protection is always about how every wire (overhead or underground) enters the building.
Unplugging has always been least effective for too many reasons to list. Top of the list is dependence on a human - who is rarely there and usually only unplugs after it is too late. Meanwhile, how does one unplug the dishwasher, furnace, all clocks, smoke detectors, RCD, and air conditioner? Those and plenty more appliances also must be disconnected or have no protection. Facilities that never have damage also never unplug.
BT does not unplug or use protectors inside their building. BT also only uses a solution proven by over 100 years of science and experience - proper earthing and 'whole house' protectors.
More numbers. A lightning bolt is typically 20,000 amps. It only creates a high voltage when one foolishly tries to block or absorb a surge inside the house. A completely different soution - also called a surge protector - is about how 20,000 amps connects to earth on a low impedance (ie wire can have no sharp bends) hardwire. Then voltage is near zero. No other and superior solution exists. A minimal 'whole house' protector for AC mains is 50,000 amps. Because no protectors must degrade or fail for decades - to enrich the manufacturer.
Lightning rods are about connecting current to earth on a low impedance path that remains outside the building ... to protect the structure. Protection is about connecting current to earth on a low impedance path that remains outside the building ... to protect appliances. When properly implemented, then voltage remains near zero. Nothing new here. This is how it has always been done even more than 100 years ago.
Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even in the same town due parameters such as geology.
Protector rated at hundreds or thousand joules is near zero; marketed to naive consumers who routinely ignore numbers. Who spend tens or 100 times more money for that near zero solution.
Recommended solution is not 100%. IEEE provides numbers. Properly earthed protection is typically 99.5% to 99.9% effective. So yes, nothing is 100%. Once we include numbers, then nobody cares - it is more than sufficient as well as many times less expensive.
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Well, I checked the FPL [Florida Power Light] website and I realized that I misunderstood the purpose of the their surge protector.
FAQ: Will SurgeShield protect my entertainment center or computer?
No. The SurgeShield suppressor is intended to protect major motor-driven home appliances and we recommended that sensitive electronics are plugged into a quality plug-in surge suppressor.
Back to square one. I did an internet search and could not find a power bar that uses GDTs. It should be a matter of building my own.
Are schematics and parts list available in this forum?
FAQ: Will SurgeShield protect my entertainment center or computer?
No. The SurgeShield suppressor is intended to protect major motor-driven home appliances and we recommended that sensitive electronics are plugged into a quality plug-in surge suppressor.
Back to square one. I did an internet search and could not find a power bar that uses GDTs. It should be a matter of building my own.
Are schematics and parts list available in this forum?
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I'm pretty enthusiastic about the series mode surge protectors sold by ZeroSurge (website). Their uncommon circuit design installs an inductor in series between the AC mains and your equipment, which slows the dV/dt and gives plenty of time for the surge clamper (monstrously large SCR) to turn on, so your downstream equipment does not see a fast risetime impulse. It's covered in a series of US Patents, the first of which is (4,870,528 - .pdf from Google Patents HERE). Referring to the schematic on page 1 of the patent, circuit component "L1" is the series inductor and circuit component "35" is the monstrous SCR. I've purchased and am using three of these surge protectors, and I've had no trouble whatsoever.
There are quite a few schematics available online for 'suitable' protectors. It is while going through this I realised that 'resistance is futile', quite literally.
Google has quite a few using GDTs and Schottky diodes. All need a very good earth connection capable of withstanding the massive load. Ham radio buffs have been dealing with this stuff for decades. so do power companies and broadcasters - more recently, cellphone service providers - basically anyone with a tall piece of metal sticking out of the ground and with sensitive electronics on it.
Google has quite a few using GDTs and Schottky diodes. All need a very good earth connection capable of withstanding the massive load. Ham radio buffs have been dealing with this stuff for decades. so do power companies and broadcasters - more recently, cellphone service providers - basically anyone with a tall piece of metal sticking out of the ground and with sensitive electronics on it.
The easiest way is to add a mains filter in an extension lead.
Or add your own.
Or add your own.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Having worked in the service industry and seen first hand the effects of lightning damage on consumer equipment my own conclusions were,
1/ Unplugging aerials to protect equipment carries the risk that the (typically) dangling fly lead will, if a direct strike occurs simply cause a fire to the carpet/curtains etc. The lead would need to be plugged into a separate grounded socket to perhaps reduce that risk.
2/ A direct hit on one property (say to an aerial feed) will often reflect to neighbouring properties via the mains.
3/ A direct strike to ground, if it gets into the mains will cause damage to whole rows of houses.
4/ Unplugging equipment as a means of protection needs the removed plugs physically moving away from the sockets to be effective.
Typical eqipment damage ranges from the obvious, where the equipment is literally blown apart, to the unexpected cases of PCB's having print blown off around the mains input section, perhaps the diodes in the bridge (smps) are missing (blown to bits) and yet the equipment works when that obvious damage is fixed. Totally bizarre but true.
Often houses have to be completely rewired following mains born lightning damage.
More subtle is the equipment that has a multitude of totally unrelated faults, as each is repaired another issue appears. Typically beyond economic repair.
I've seen wall mounted phones that have been blown across a room when the overhead wire or cabinet at the end of the road have taken a hit.
1/ Unplugging aerials to protect equipment carries the risk that the (typically) dangling fly lead will, if a direct strike occurs simply cause a fire to the carpet/curtains etc. The lead would need to be plugged into a separate grounded socket to perhaps reduce that risk.
2/ A direct hit on one property (say to an aerial feed) will often reflect to neighbouring properties via the mains.
3/ A direct strike to ground, if it gets into the mains will cause damage to whole rows of houses.
4/ Unplugging equipment as a means of protection needs the removed plugs physically moving away from the sockets to be effective.
Typical eqipment damage ranges from the obvious, where the equipment is literally blown apart, to the unexpected cases of PCB's having print blown off around the mains input section, perhaps the diodes in the bridge (smps) are missing (blown to bits) and yet the equipment works when that obvious damage is fixed. Totally bizarre but true.
Often houses have to be completely rewired following mains born lightning damage.
More subtle is the equipment that has a multitude of totally unrelated faults, as each is repaired another issue appears. Typically beyond economic repair.
I've seen wall mounted phones that have been blown across a room when the overhead wire or cabinet at the end of the road have taken a hit.
Officially, that is what we tell everyone. After all, the 'whole house' solution is only 99.5% to 99.9% effective. And the power bar protector adds maybe 0.2% protection. Better is to get you to blame the power bar.
Meanwhile, telco exhanges, munitions dumps, military communication facilities, et al only use the 'whole house' solution.
Even more bogus is a series mode protector so often promoted by people who never include numbers with their recommendation. It is only supplemental protection only if used in conjunction with the 'whole house' solution. Using their spec numbers, that series mode filter will absorb maybe 6000 joules. Absorbs tiny surges that are often also made irrelevant by similar circuits already inside all electronics. Standards that define this existing protection and make other anomalies irrelevant are numerically defined by IEC61000 and others. Since what that series mode filter does must already be inside electronics.
For example, if a surge is incoming to the filter, that exact same current must be outgoing on the other side of that filter. A surge is a current source. That means voltage will increase as necessary so that the current will still flow. Where is the protection when voltage increases to blow through that filter (often without damaging filter parts).
No way around reality. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. What other recommendation discusses that requirement? None. What other recommendation was made with numbers? None. What other solution protects even from direct lightning strikes for about $1 per protected appliance? With numbers that say why the protector does not even fail. None.
Did you inspect earth ground for that FPL installed protector - as so strongly recommended by someone who actually did this stuff? Only you are responsible for what actually does the protection. If not, then near zero protection exists. Again, only question that must always be answered. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? A useful recommendation will always answer that question - with numbers that also say why. No series mode filter does that.
Why did they forget to mention the series mode filters required and already inside electronics? Another damning question. 'Whole house' protection is not perfect. But nothing else is anywhere near as effective. And so electronics atop the Empire State Building suffer 23 direct strikes annually - without damage. Telco COs suffer about 100 surges with each thunderstorm - without damage. More numbers.
I feel like we're all standing in the corner, yet I'll still ask
Isn't 100% a number?
Am I too dense to see your specific solution?
Isn't 100% a number?
Am I too dense to see your specific solution?
100% of what? How is 100% of something ambiguous relevant?
'Whole house' protection is maybe 99.5% to 99.9% protection. From the IEEE
It is not 100%. Need it be?
Best effort to protect put fuse for all 3 wires Ground, Netural and Hot(positive) and another 3 in the AC wall. Also you can use stabilizer. Donot forget lightning rods.
All the surge protector has to do is clamp the downstream voltage long enough for its upstream fuse to open. This requires milliseconds.
Placing a series inductor before the clamping device(s) was a cute idea, in my opinion. It slows down the risetime which gives the clamp(s) plenty of time to turn on.
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Placing a series inductor before the clamping device(s) was a cute idea, in my opinion. It slows down the risetime which gives the clamp(s) plenty of time to turn on.
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