Speaker vs. amp
- Thread starter rinx
- Start date
You could always run the speakers in series, would amount to 16 ohm.
http://www.marantzphilips.nl/index.asp?strPage=Info&strBrand=Marantz&strType=Marantzpm80
I assume that is your amp, I cant find any detail on it, you sure it can't do 4 ohms? From what I am reading, the latter PM80s do 4ohm quite easily. Does it say 8-16 on the rear near the speaker terminals?
http://www.marantzphilips.nl/index.asp?strPage=Info&strBrand=Marantz&strType=Marantzpm80
I assume that is your amp, I cant find any detail on it, you sure it can't do 4 ohms? From what I am reading, the latter PM80s do 4ohm quite easily. Does it say 8-16 on the rear near the speaker terminals?
Well, you could try and find some woofers that were 16 ohms each, then the total would be 8 ohms. Or you could use 4 ohms woofers and put the in series.
While I can't say with absolute certainty, it seems unlikely that any modern amp would not handle 4 ohm to 16 ohms TOTAL load per channel. Since most stereo amps of the type you have, have an A, B, and A+B speaker switching feature, it would be right to say 8 ohms was the minimum. Meaning, 8 ohms on the 'A' connector and 8 ohms on the 'B' connector for a TOTAL load of 4 ohms.
It's always annoying when amp manufacturers don't come right out and say this in plain English. But over all, it is very rare for any modern amp (meaning after the invention of the transistor) to not be able to support total speaker loads in the range of 4 ohms to 16 ohms. That is a virtual standard in the Hi-Fi industry.
Steve/Bluewizard
While I can't say with absolute certainty, it seems unlikely that any modern amp would not handle 4 ohm to 16 ohms TOTAL load per channel. Since most stereo amps of the type you have, have an A, B, and A+B speaker switching feature, it would be right to say 8 ohms was the minimum. Meaning, 8 ohms on the 'A' connector and 8 ohms on the 'B' connector for a TOTAL load of 4 ohms.
It's always annoying when amp manufacturers don't come right out and say this in plain English. But over all, it is very rare for any modern amp (meaning after the invention of the transistor) to not be able to support total speaker loads in the range of 4 ohms to 16 ohms. That is a virtual standard in the Hi-Fi industry.
Steve/Bluewizard
How about a direct quote of what it says -
It seems to be --
Bi Wire Speaker System
System ????: ???~??? ohms
System A+B: ????? ohms
?? ?????
At any rate, Current is the problem. Two things affect current, low impedance and high signal levels. Either one of those can cause your amp to run out of current. Current causes heat, current causes the output voltage to drop; as long as your current demands are within reason your amp should handle it.
However, this brings up the very problem we all face, how low an impedance is too low, and how loud is too loud, and I don't think that is an answer we can give you with absolute certainty.
I still say any amp can handle the virtual standard load range of 4 ohms to 16 ohms TOTAL per channel impedance. But I have no way of proving it for your specific amp.
Steve/bluewizard
It seems to be --
Bi Wire Speaker System
System ????: ???~??? ohms
System A+B: ????? ohms
?? ?????
At any rate, Current is the problem. Two things affect current, low impedance and high signal levels. Either one of those can cause your amp to run out of current. Current causes heat, current causes the output voltage to drop; as long as your current demands are within reason your amp should handle it.
However, this brings up the very problem we all face, how low an impedance is too low, and how loud is too loud, and I don't think that is an answer we can give you with absolute certainty.
I still say any amp can handle the virtual standard load range of 4 ohms to 16 ohms TOTAL per channel impedance. But I have no way of proving it for your specific amp.
Steve/bluewizard
Rinx,
Now you are getting to a very tricky part. First keep in mind that it only takes 1 watt to push your speakers to their rated sensitivity. Typically sensitivity rating are in the form 90db at 1 watt at 1 meter.
Two speakers in Parallel receive the same voltage, but the total current is divided between them. Two speakers in Series divide the total voltage, but they both get the same amount of current.
When you turn the Volume Control, you are not applying watts to the speaker, you are applying signal or voltage, and the resulting watts are what ever they are based on the load.
If you apply 16 volts signal to 8 ohms, the resulting power is
P = (E^2)/R
P = (16^2)/8
P = 256/8 = 32 watts
16v to 4 ohms
P = 256/4 = 64 watts
16v to 16 ohms
P = 256/16 = 16 watts
Notice that while each example above consumes a different amount of power, they all have the same signal voltage applied to them.
So power and perceived sound are not linear. One nudge upward of the volume control does not result in one nudge upward of the power.
When you turn your Volume Control up one very very small amount, just enough to hear a change in the sound level, that is about 3 db. Three DB represents a doubling of applied power.
So, in the above case, the perceived volume (what you actually hear) from an 8 ohm speaker relative to a 4 ohm speaker is one very tiny nudge of the Volume Control. A 16 ohm speaker relative to a 4 ohm speaker is two tiny nudges upward of the volume control. In either case, you are always going to be well within the normal turn of the Volume Control; that is, still in the normal listening range.
All that said, I still say your amp shouldn't have a problem with 4 ohms, but obviously, I can't actually promise that.
Another question, is this speaker design a known design that you are copying or basing your speakers on, or is this an original design created by you?
If it is a known design, and there are lots of them out there, then you should be able to get information on those designs and get some sense of the impedance response curve. This does sound like a fairly standard design.
Exactly what Dayton speakers are you looking at, and have you actually purchased them yet? It is possible that you might be able to find the equivalent Dayton in a 16 ohm version and that would solve your problems.
Still, in the end, the world is full of 4 ohm and 6 ohms speakers, I can't imagine that any good amp would have a problem with that.
One thing you could do, is when your cabinets are rough ready, temporarily install your woofers without the crossover, and listen to them in both parallel and series at modest volumes (25% to 30% turn of the Volume Control), and see if you hear a real difference in them.
It's a tough decision to make, but it is one that all speaker designers face.
Sorry, the was probably a lot of talking that adds up to not much help.
Steve/bluewizard
Now you are getting to a very tricky part. First keep in mind that it only takes 1 watt to push your speakers to their rated sensitivity. Typically sensitivity rating are in the form 90db at 1 watt at 1 meter.
Two speakers in Parallel receive the same voltage, but the total current is divided between them. Two speakers in Series divide the total voltage, but they both get the same amount of current.
When you turn the Volume Control, you are not applying watts to the speaker, you are applying signal or voltage, and the resulting watts are what ever they are based on the load.
If you apply 16 volts signal to 8 ohms, the resulting power is
P = (E^2)/R
P = (16^2)/8
P = 256/8 = 32 watts
16v to 4 ohms
P = 256/4 = 64 watts
16v to 16 ohms
P = 256/16 = 16 watts
Notice that while each example above consumes a different amount of power, they all have the same signal voltage applied to them.
So power and perceived sound are not linear. One nudge upward of the volume control does not result in one nudge upward of the power.
When you turn your Volume Control up one very very small amount, just enough to hear a change in the sound level, that is about 3 db. Three DB represents a doubling of applied power.
So, in the above case, the perceived volume (what you actually hear) from an 8 ohm speaker relative to a 4 ohm speaker is one very tiny nudge of the Volume Control. A 16 ohm speaker relative to a 4 ohm speaker is two tiny nudges upward of the volume control. In either case, you are always going to be well within the normal turn of the Volume Control; that is, still in the normal listening range.
All that said, I still say your amp shouldn't have a problem with 4 ohms, but obviously, I can't actually promise that.
Another question, is this speaker design a known design that you are copying or basing your speakers on, or is this an original design created by you?
If it is a known design, and there are lots of them out there, then you should be able to get information on those designs and get some sense of the impedance response curve. This does sound like a fairly standard design.
Exactly what Dayton speakers are you looking at, and have you actually purchased them yet? It is possible that you might be able to find the equivalent Dayton in a 16 ohm version and that would solve your problems.
Still, in the end, the world is full of 4 ohm and 6 ohms speakers, I can't imagine that any good amp would have a problem with that.
One thing you could do, is when your cabinets are rough ready, temporarily install your woofers without the crossover, and listen to them in both parallel and series at modest volumes (25% to 30% turn of the Volume Control), and see if you hear a real difference in them.
It's a tough decision to make, but it is one that all speaker designers face.
Sorry, the was probably a lot of talking that adds up to not much help.
Steve/bluewizard
Sorry, I just realized that you DID tell us the exact Dayton model number, but a quick search showed that that exact model Dayton woofer is available in 4 Ohms.
Dayton RS225-4 8" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-376
For what it's worth.
Steve/bluewizard
Dayton RS225-4 8" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-376
For what it's worth.
Steve/bluewizard
Hei BlueWizard!
You made some important things very simpel.
Now I understand what is 3db a lot better.Plus
Fisrt I already have purchsed those Dayton and they are like this
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-366
..dayton you found are better to car. And mines are shielded.
I am gonna do my own enclosure disain, I have already started I even use some industry service working with MDF (22mm). I have contract with our local Pianoindustry also, to get lack from them. And some parts of the speakers I am gonna cover with natural Palisander veneer.
By the way I have seen some projects with 2xDayton parallel, but I dont have any clue what kind of amp they are going to use.
Thats kind a good idea, when I am done with my enclosure, just to test speakers parallel-series and how amp is doing.
But could you give me some idea, if I am still doing this 4 ohms version, and using 8hms amp, how loud I can approx. listen the speakers until my amp will die
. Does it goes totally hot?! Amp start doing some wierd noice or what. Because, to tell the truth I really dont want to burn down my nice MarantzPM80. I also use Marantz CD63 KI version for CD s.
You made some important things very simpel.
Now I understand what is 3db a lot better.Plus
Fisrt I already have purchsed those Dayton and they are like this
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-366
..dayton you found are better to car. And mines are shielded.
I am gonna do my own enclosure disain, I have already started I even use some industry service working with MDF (22mm). I have contract with our local Pianoindustry also, to get lack from them. And some parts of the speakers I am gonna cover with natural Palisander veneer.
By the way I have seen some projects with 2xDayton parallel, but I dont have any clue what kind of amp they are going to use.
Thats kind a good idea, when I am done with my enclosure, just to test speakers parallel-series and how amp is doing.
But could you give me some idea, if I am still doing this 4 ohms version, and using 8hms amp, how loud I can approx. listen the speakers until my amp will die
. Does it goes totally hot?! Amp start doing some wierd noice or what. Because, to tell the truth I really dont want to burn down my nice MarantzPM80. I also use Marantz CD63 KI version for CD s.I can't say for sure how loud you will be able to play your amp, but I would guess anything below 50% turn of the Volume Control would be workable. That is probably quite loud.
Likely if you overload the amp, it will probably just shut down. Most modern amps, especially quality amps like Marantz, have overload/short circuit protection, and likely over temperature protection too.
I notice those speakers have an Re of 6.4 ohms, meaning that it is unlikely that the total load on the amp will ever drop below 3.2 ohms. Keep in mind that this is common for all speakers. Rated impedance is 'nominal' (meaning 'sort of'). It is common for speaker to drop slightly below and noticeably above rated impedance.
I honestly don't think you will have a problem, but of course I can't guarantee it. Also, be aware that if you have one 4 ohms speaker on a channel, you can't add any more speakers; no fronts and rears, fronts only.
Let us know what happens when you test the Series and Parallel combinations.
For what it's worth.
Steve/bluewizard
Likely if you overload the amp, it will probably just shut down. Most modern amps, especially quality amps like Marantz, have overload/short circuit protection, and likely over temperature protection too.
I notice those speakers have an Re of 6.4 ohms, meaning that it is unlikely that the total load on the amp will ever drop below 3.2 ohms. Keep in mind that this is common for all speakers. Rated impedance is 'nominal' (meaning 'sort of'). It is common for speaker to drop slightly below and noticeably above rated impedance.
I honestly don't think you will have a problem, but of course I can't guarantee it. Also, be aware that if you have one 4 ohms speaker on a channel, you can't add any more speakers; no fronts and rears, fronts only.
Let us know what happens when you test the Series and Parallel combinations.
For what it's worth.
Steve/bluewizard